Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: Cypherpunk Cults)

At 09:18 AM 8/27/97 +0100, Adam Back wrote:

>It's a distributed system, it's more resilient to abuse than
>governments.
>
>If one person becomes too much of a nuisance (real trigger happy for
>ultra minor infractions -- swearing at them, daring to look at them
>when they're in a bad bood) relatives, friends, or concerned citizens
>will correct (fill trigger happy person with lead).
>
>That's how the wild west worked anyway... outlaws didn't last that
>long.
>
>So you're relying on other peoples sense of fairness ... should easily
>work out better than governments.
>
Ever heard of mob violence?  Read up on the Salem witch trials when a bunch
of people got together and murdered a bunch of thier own on the evidence of
the rantings of a few girls.

Don't forget hitler, who managed to swing an entire country against a ever
growing list of minorities.  Granted, this was from within government, but
the principle is the same.

Anarchy is good, as long as an us versus them mentality doesn't occur.  That
would require a far more homogenious population than we have now.  If
everyone had the same skin color, hair color, eye color, bone structure, and
color of socks, war would eventually break out over who lived on which side
of the river.

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In <199708271949.PAA23255@www.video-collage.com>, on 08/27/97 
   at 03:49 PM, Sean Roach <roach_s@alph.swosu.edu> said:


>At 09:18 AM 8/27/97 +0100, Adam Back wrote:

>>It's a distributed system, it's more resilient to abuse than
>>governments.
>>
>>If one person becomes too much of a nuisance (real trigger happy for
>>ultra minor infractions -- swearing at them, daring to look at them
>>when they're in a bad bood) relatives, friends, or concerned citizens
>>will correct (fill trigger happy person with lead).
>>
>>That's how the wild west worked anyway... outlaws didn't last that
>>long.
>>
>>So you're relying on other peoples sense of fairness ... should easily
>>work out better than governments.
>>


>Ever heard of mob violence?  Read up on the Salem witch trials when a
>bunch of people got together and murdered a bunch of thier own on the
>evidence of the rantings of a few girls.

>Don't forget hitler, who managed to swing an entire country against a
>ever growing list of minorities.  Granted, this was from within
>government, but the principle is the same.

>Anarchy is good, as long as an us versus them mentality doesn't occur. 
>That would require a far more homogenious population than we have now. 
>If everyone had the same skin color, hair color, eye color, bone
>structure, and color of socks, war would eventually break out over who
>lived on which side of the river.

Both of your examples only go to prove the point of anarchy is better then
governments.

In the Salem witch trial they were government trials (which were based on
a political power struggle in Salem at the time) not lynch mobs. 

In Germany, as in all mass murders, was the act of the *Governemnt*.

No matter how you add the numbers up there has been many many more deaths
caused by governments than there ever has or will be by criminal.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
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On Wed, Aug 27, 1997 at 05:32:15PM -0400, William H. Geiger III wrote:
[...]
> 
> Both of your examples only go to prove the point of anarchy is better then
> governments.

Yes, in the same sense that you can say that unicorns are better than
horses.  But horses are real, and unicorns are imaginary.  Unicorns
have all the advantage -- we don't have to deal with unicorn shit. 

Governments are real, and anarchy is a utopian ideal, just like 
communism.

[...]

> In Germany, as in all mass murders, was the act of the *Governemnt*.
> 
> No matter how you add the numbers up there has been many many more deaths
> caused by governments than there ever has or will be by criminal.

A meaningless assertion.  Like saying "all people who die breathed
air, therefore air is the cause of death".  

You say "guns don't murder people, people murder people", therefore it
follows "Governments don't murder people, people murder people."  
Governments are instruments of people, not independent intelligent 
agents. 

You create this bogeyman, the *GOVERNMENT*, and blame everything on
it.  Now, you have identified the source of all evil.  You imagine a
fantasy hero, Anarchy, with its invincible magic sword, Cryptography,
that can defeat the bogeyman.  With this comforting theology you
swagger down the cryptoanarchy dreamscape, your head filled with the
rightness of your cause, and your righteous piece on your hip, ready
to dispense sudden death to anyone who breaks your rules. 

A comforting dream, to be sure.  But a dream.  Government is a
reality.  All empirical evidence points to government being an
inevitable part of the human condition.  Anarchy is a fantasy. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
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