Alex le Heux

A million monkeys operating under the pseudonym
 "Alex le Heux <alexlh@xs4all.nl>" typed:
>



Hey HEY!  It's the man who nearly managed to single-handedly 
derail the PGP legal export hack by playing the block rocking 
beats (all vinyl) which inspired the vacationing hackers to 
spill the drinks on the source books.


But in his defense, he also nurtured the cpunks network in 
between sets.


Welcome to the list!


Zooko the Mysterieux

P.S.  MP3 is coooool.  CDNow.com needs to start selling MP3's 
in return for digital cash small change!

P.P.S.  No really-- I'm _not_ a cypherpunk, because cypherpunks 
appear to be overwhelmed with blind, self-destructive 
bloodlust since 1996 or so.  I'm just here to try talking some
sense into the salvageable ones.

Zooko Journeyman <zooko@xs4all.nl> writes:
> [...]
>
> P.P.S.  No really-- I'm _not_ a cypherpunk, because cypherpunks 
> appear to be overwhelmed with blind, self-destructive 
> bloodlust since 1996 or so.  I'm just here to try talking some
> sense into the salvageable ones.

Cypherpunks are individuals.

Pick 10 cypherpunks, you'll get 10 different views.

Don't see the need to disclaim non-cypherpunk status due to
`bloodlust'...  Are you anticipating that the list readership will be
collectively locked up for non-government approved thoughts?

Are you sure that having a 10 mile crater where there used to be a
bunch of power-crazed beaurocrats wouldn't be a net improvement :-)?

It's not as if anyone is planning to nuke them anyway, it's just
invective.  There might be some danger of some of us writing a bit of
crypto code, or saying some negative things about politicians.  No
laws against either of those (yet).

On AP/betting pools etc., politics and governments are all about
force.  Why should governments have a monopoly on force?  People
applaud SAS/CIA assassinations as humanitarian efforts.  What's the
difference?

A lot of the systematic torture, intimidation, carried out by 3rd
world dictatorships is done at the hands of CIA trained government
employees.

If you find your own government not extreme enough to feel comfortable
evaluating net benefits to human happiness in removal of corrupt
government officials, perhaps you would be happier evaluating societal
benefits of theoretically removing some 3rd world countries more
corrupt officials.

It's not bloodlust, it's game theory...

Adam
-- 
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:49 PM 8/19/97 -0700, Kent Crispin wrote:

>It's actually closer to a cult -- a small group with it's own shared
>reality -- a reality quite at variance with societal norms.  The cult
>has its own terminology, and an underlying dogma to which these code
>words refer.  The cult has "special knowledge" that has been revealed
>to them concerning massive changes that will happen to society --
>changes that will usher in a new world order.  These changes may 
>involve the world going through a cleansing fire of war of war and 
>destruction. 

One minor difference is that most cults don't manage to convince the head of 
the FBI and various other national leaders that their scenario is possible.  
[I'm not saying that we actually convinced anyone ourselves but we certainly 
share a vision of a possible future with Freeh and various intelligence 
types.]  They talk about their fears of digital anarchy all the time.  I 
don't remember the FBI director talking about the Lamb and the Book of Rev 
like Koresh or about the saucer behind Hale-Bopp like Heaven's Gate.

Not an ordinary cult.

DCF

"If Vince Foster had a gun he'd be alive today."
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM/yXAYVO4r4sgSPhAQGiCAP/SGwXrg5LFHtSQLE6qKfBNiltjwC7b15b
SA87/SZPuLSaK1u/oYgXdlSBlmac1tN2Ur7bmeR6AA5opIlC0Edq7FRiMx/RWk6d
tQOYaS7QJThgfWa+Hp+Z2xX8UGz8JYzrCrnPXdMrboDvcReGuPR+52TlE2lUra2H
AQMBcq/Vin0=
=eQJD
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

> evaluating net benefits to human happiness in removal of corrupt
> government officials, perhaps you would be happier evaluating societal
> benefits of theoretically removing some 3rd world countries more
> corrupt officials.
> 
> It's not bloodlust, it's game theory...
> 
> Adam
> -- 

Yes, but you must first assert that this is a zero sum game. 

The semantics of such a philosophy are too much to think 
about now. :).

-Brad

On Mon, 18 Aug 1997, Zooko Journeyman wrote:

> 
>  A million monkeys operating under the pseudonym
>  "Alex le Heux <alexlh@xs4all.nl>" typed:
> >
> 
> 
> 
> Hey HEY!  It's the man who nearly managed to single-handedly 
> derail the PGP legal export hack by playing the block rocking 
> beats (all vinyl) which inspired the vacationing hackers to 
> spill the drinks on the source books.

Without Alex, there wouldn't really have been a Cypherpunks party tent 
to do the hack in. Well, the tent might have been there, but there would 
have been less fun and certainly not as many good looking women. And 
besides, how could one hack without music?

--Lucky

At 12:19 PM -0700 8/18/97, Zooko Journeyman wrote:

>P.P.S.  No really-- I'm _not_ a cypherpunk, because cypherpunks
>appear to be overwhelmed with blind, self-destructive
>bloodlust since 1996 or so.  I'm just here to try talking some
>sense into the salvageable ones.

Yes, "B.", so you keep saying.

Fact is, many who remain on the list are reacting to government actions
which are far more "intense" than what we had seen in the 1992-4 period.
Things like the doublespeak of "mandatory voluntary" programs, the probable
illegalization of tools to protect communications, and the "New World
Order" machinations. (These being the behind the scenes pressures being
applied to European and Asian governments, vis-a-vis Wasenaar, OECD, the
secret meetings, the Orwellian language the governments are adopting to
describe "trusted third parties (who actually provide keys to the
authorities without telling the customer)," etc.)

Not to mention the "felonization" of increasing numbers of things. Physical
things that were bought fully legally are now "contraband." Except to cops,
who are buying them in ever-increasing amounts. The sheeple, though, cannot
be trusted to own the things the cops own freely. And I'm talking about
more than just "compliance tools" (aka toilet plungers).

As to us being more violent, I think this is utter bullshit, "B." Read the
archived traffic of the list in the period surrounding the burning of the
illegal religion in Waco, Texas. Or the traffic after a wife and son were
killed by the cop criminal Lon Horiuchi (whom some militia members have
placed a bounty on...the Feds have apparently placed this killer into the
Witness Security Program, run, ironically, by the same U.S. Marshal's
Service now in charge of Jim Bell's detention!)

I think you, "B.," have just gotten a lot more nervous that what many of us
are advocating is in fact warfare against the State. I get e-mail from
folks who were once active on the Cypherpunks list saying, in various ways,
that they can no longer be as visible about their participation in the
list, for multiple reasons.

First, the rise of search engines, archives, and employers routinely
running DejaNews and other search engine checks on potential employees and
consultants to see what sorts of folks they are. (Whether being active on
the Cypherpunks list will nix a job is pretty unlikely, but it's still a
worry to some.)

Second, the apparent state of war between Cypherpunks and governments.
After recent actions by freedom fighters to bomb stooge facilities,
governments are treating "militias" as quasi-criminal organizations. (There
are many nuances to this point. In the U.S., I don't think such
organizations have been outlawed, as the Constitution remains a protection
of sorts. But many have been investigated, and, as John Young noted
recently, the IRS treats membership in certain organizations as a threat.
And there is Clinton's Anti-Terrorism Act, which explicitly makes certain
kinds of financial and other activities illegal, even by Americans, which
involve support of "terrorist" organizations. It is not inconceivable that,
following outlawing of strong crypto in various countries, that the
Cypherpunks group gets classified as an organization or group which
supports terrorist goals, which is almost certainly true.)

Third, some of those who make the most extreme calls for the killing of
Feds, the bombing of government operations in various nations, etc., are
using remailers. Isn't this exactly what remailers are likely to be used
for?

Fourth, the arrest and prosecution of Jim Bell, with tax evasion and a
minor stink bomb case turned into a "federal case" because of his
controversial views. This has obviously angered and radicalized many. Some
of us have stocked up on more asault weapons and shotguns, placed alarms
around our property, and we are expecting a "raid." As I have said, if
black-clad ninja raiders try to hit me, I'll assume they're "home invaders"
and will open fire. (A Sheriff's Deputy once told me that even saying I
would defend my home against unwelcome intruders constituted a "threat" and
that he might order a detachment to visit my compound. So far, two years
later, he hasn't made good on _his_ threat. And now I'm more ready for him
than ever.)

Fifth, the censorship fiasco  on the list angered many of us. After it
ended, many of us were no longer quite as willing to be "helpful." I, for
example, no longer write _any_ introductory essays, nor do I waste my time
encouraging people not to be too flamism. I used to occasionally do this,
filling a kind of "elder statesmen" or "eminence grise" role, as some
others expressed it. No more. If my posts were being censored, which they
were, then the removal of censorship caused me--and apparently others--to
"call a spade a spade." So when "DeathMonger" calls for the killing of
Feds, who am I to suggest this discussion be squelched? Forcible
censorship, once tried, often makes it effectively impossible for _any_
kind of guidance or advice along these lines. (This is an utterly
predictable outcome of attempts to censor.)

Finally, and to recap some of these points, when the Cypherpunks list and
group first started, many did not take the "collapse of government"
promises too seriously. Now, with even Louis Freeh and Janet Reno saying
that strong crypto represents a major and urgent threat to governments
(they call it "law enforcement" and "tax collection," and also talk about
threats of unregulated gambling, unregulated access to medical data,
uncontrolled communication between cult members, and so on), it seems that
the dangers of crypto anarchy are being more widely trumpeted.

This has the effect of making what we actually say here seem more
"plausibly scary." I don't know if this is why some are avoiding the list
now, or for other reasons (the list has never full recovered from the
censorship fiasco

So, "B.," stop apologizing for reading the list. You're already a marked
man in their eyes...and search engines can already identify the True Name
who is posting the last year or two as "Zooko Journeyman." In a couple of
years, all search engines will have "known aliases" macros to automatically
ferret out the web of pseudonyms linkable to a poster. You can run, but you
can't hide.

And "democracy" is spinning out of control, being used by authoritarians to
convert the world into a security state. Restrictions on travel, new drug
laws, laws against images and words on the Net, and thousands of new laws
every years.

A frontal assault, using strong crypto to aid in the attacks by freedom
fighters and to destablize authority, makes more sense. When a government
official decrees that citizen-units may no longer do certain things which
were once quite legal and quite common (such as owning a gun for defense),
that official must expect certain repercussions.

We're in a state of war with the statists and tyrants. It's what Jefferson
and the other Founders expected to happen, and now the watering with the
blood of patriots and tyrants is happening.

It's what the Founders expected.  Get used to it.

If crypto anonymity tools were available to the Founders, they'd have used
them against the British. Likewise, strong crypto is already being used by
the freedom fighters in Palestine against the Zionist Occupation
Government. That PGP 5.0 is being used by Hamas should send chills through
the ZOG in Jerusalem, and is probably why Cypherpunks is about to be
classed as a "terrorist group."

(What happened to the Jews in WW II was terrible, of course, but that was
no excused for forcibly evicting vast numbers of "sand niggers" so as to
make room for Jewish settlers. Their sons and grandsons will now end up
paying the price, as freedom fighters drive them into the sea. Broken eggs
and all.)

--Tim May




There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

CBS must be going for the propaganda suck-up award this year.

Following tonight's "Chicago Hope," which dumped an immense wad of
socialist propaganda on us ("Health care is a right!"  "No one should ever
profit off a sick child."), the local news ran a CBS-produced feature
about the internet.  First half showed how cute bunny-rabbit cartoons
can educate your little hothouse genius.  Second half then explained how
there are {gasp} dirty *sex* sites out there that junior could
accidentally stumble across.  Obviously, something *must* be done.

Feature included a representative teen who manfully resists the temptation
to look at the feelthy pictures, 16-year-old Tim May of California.

I'm not making this up.

I wonder if it's an accident or a deliberate middle-finger from the
propagandists?

bd

On Tue, 19 Aug 1997, Brad Dolan wrote:

> CBS must be going for the propaganda suck-up award this year.

> Second half then explained how there are {gasp} dirty *sex* sites out
> there that junior could accidentally stumble across.  Obviously,
> something *must* be done. 

 * Something must be done.
 * This is something.
 * Therefore, we must do it.

 (Yes, Prime Minister?)

::Boots

At 12:35 AM 8/19/97 -0400, you wrote:
>Following tonight's "Chicago Hope," which dumped an immense wad of
>socialist propaganda on us ("Health care is a right!"  "No one should ever
>profit off a sick child."), the local news ran a CBS-produced feature
>about the internet.

Figures.

A hearty "up yers" is in order to them.

>First half showed how cute bunny-rabbit cartoons
>can educate your little hothouse genius.  Second half then explained how
>there are {gasp} dirty *sex* sites out there that junior could
>accidentally stumble across.  Obviously, something *must* be done.

Yeah, perhaps teaching your kids what's wrong and right, to the best of
your ability, and no less, as a parent.  Perhaps also teaching them how not
to get sucked into a pedophile.

>Feature included a representative teen who manfully resists the temptation
>to look at the feelthy pictures, 16-year-old Tim May of California.
>
>I'm not making this up.

?????

>I wonder if it's an accident or a deliberate middle-finger from the
>propagandists?

Sounds like an accident at first, but, well...
/===========================================================\
  Help win the fight against weak encryption!  Break RC5-56
 -----------|>  http://rc5.distributed.net/  <|-------------
               Member of Starbase XII RC5 Team
  Free secure e-mail, a reality?  Yes! Pretty Good Privacy
      available at http://web.mit.edu/network/pgp.html
\===========================================================/

At 9:35 PM -0700 8/18/97, Brad Dolan wrote:
>CBS must be going for the propaganda suck-up award this year.
>
>Following tonight's "Chicago Hope," which dumped an immense wad of
>socialist propaganda on us ("Health care is a right!"  "No one should ever
>profit off a sick child."), the local news ran a CBS-produced feature
>about the internet.  First half showed how cute bunny-rabbit cartoons
>can educate your little hothouse genius.  Second half then explained how
>there are {gasp} dirty *sex* sites out there that junior could
>accidentally stumble across.  Obviously, something *must* be done.
>
>Feature included a representative teen who manfully resists the temptation
>to look at the feelthy pictures, 16-year-old Tim May of California.
>
>I'm not making this up.
>
>I wonder if it's an accident or a deliberate middle-finger from the
>propagandists?

They finally aired that interview? I did that a couple of years ago.

I got my first Internet account when I was 12, about a year before I got
started in the Cypherpunks group.

But I'm 18 now, and fully authorized by the State to look at dirty
pictures, on or off the Net.

--Tim, yes, _that_ one.

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

At 8:02 AM -0700 8/19/97, Duncan Frissell wrote:

>State is lagging in issuing the terrorist organization list required by this
>law.  It is believed that they are chicken because most of the groups would
>be Moslem groups and this would be considered a politically incorrect
>denigration of a "protected group."  Then they'd have to put the IRA on the
>list as well and that would cause controversy.  If they never issue the
>list...
>
>In any case, I don't think that we have to worry because we don't fund
>anyone.  We just send non-cash bits.  The law requires that a foreign
>terrorist group on the "Attorney General's List" (actually State Department)
>receive money or physical support.  I suppose remailers could be targetted
>but that would make for an interesting case since anonymnity remains
>protected.

Actually, this is not true. I guess it depends on who the "we" is/are. I've
made contributions to groups whose goals I support. And several years ago I
helped some political groups get PGP 2.0 installed for use. (They can now
find experts within their own group, as I am hardly current on PGP and its
many variations and installation options. But in '92-'93 I was a local
expert, comparatively.)

It bears mentioning that the "rebel group" in Myanmar/Burma which Phil
Zimmermann is so proud of, becauase they were early users of PGP to protect
their communications and laptops, is both a terrorist and a drug dealing
group. As the rebels battle the forces of Slorc, the regime in power, they
fund their activities with the thriving heroin trade out of the Shan
province. And they ambush Slorc vehicles and kill the soldiers inside,
plant bombs in strategic locations, etc. No different from Hamas freedom
fighters bombing ZOG installations in the Zionist Entity.

And Hamas is now using PGP, frustrating the ZOG and Palestinian Authority
officials to no end. The Engineer, now presumed dead, is thus replaced by
The Cryptologist.

So, when PGP supporters claim that PGP is not being used for "terrorist
activities," they are ignoring reality. Depends on a definition of
terrorism, as always. When the U.S. mines the harbors of countries with
democratically elected governments, or assassinates Patrice Lumumba, Ahmed
Ben Bella, etc., this is called "fighting for democracy." When the
U.S.-backed Cuban emigre terrorist groups blow up planes out of Havana,
this is called "freedom fighting."

When Hamas stages similar acts, it is "terrorism."

So, if PGP supporters help the Burmese rebels to set up secure networks, is
this legal or illegal under the Anti-Terrorism Act? And if PGP supporters
help Hamas set up secure networks, is this legal or illegal?

Exactly what is the difference?

Clinton's Anti-Terrorism Act leaves it unclear which of these actions we
citizen units are allowed to express support, financial, moral, or
technical, for.

Fuck them. They are the real terrorists.

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 11:02 AM 8/19/97 -0400, Duncan Frissell wrote:
>State is lagging in issuing the terrorist organization list required
> by this law.  It is believed that they are chicken because most of the 
>groups would be Moslem groups and this would be considered [...] IRA ...

>In any case, I don't think that we have to worry because we don't fund 
>anyone.  We just send non-cash bits.  The law requires that a foreign 
>terrorist group on the "Attorney General's List" (actually State 
>Department) receive money or physical support.  

I've never sent real gold or silver money to the terrorist groups
_I_ support.  Maybe some pieces of paper with my writing and some MICR,
or maybe some notes from the Fed that promise to pay in US dollars, but
certainly no money...



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQBVAwUBM/qmNPthU5e7emAFAQGohgIAj+O+YN/Eyk6/M7L5+/g9Ap1HgNlQ/P7e
86KfFjDhwxE4xa1d5/ns9JKgHZb5S6lGNgQp9YzlFfriE7h7s5z2zQ==
=q7vW
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)

The paper today said something about a rash of "Poetic Terrorism"
going on in New Orleans.  Boxes of random poetry manifestoes showing
up around town, stuff tacked to billboards, toasters and other unexplained
objects in artistically arranged spaces, demands for official poetry-readings
by the police department.  A couple of suspects. 

Somebody's been reading Hakim Bey again....
	http://www.unicorn.com//lib/taz.html

#			Thanks;  Bill
# Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com
# You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp
#   (If this is a mailing list or news, please Cc: me on replies.  Thanks.)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>And there is Clinton's Anti-Terrorism Act, which explicitly makes certain
>kinds of financial and other activities illegal, even by Americans, which
>involve support of "terrorist" organizations. It is not inconceivable that,
>following outlawing of strong crypto in various countries, that the
>Cypherpunks group gets classified as an organization or group which
>supports terrorist goals, which is almost certainly true.)

State is lagging in issuing the terrorist organization list required by this 
law.  It is believed that they are chicken because most of the groups would 
be Moslem groups and this would be considered a politically incorrect 
denigration of a "protected group."  Then they'd have to put the IRA on the 
list as well and that would cause controversy.  If they never issue the 
list...

In any case, I don't think that we have to worry because we don't fund 
anyone.  We just send non-cash bits.  The law requires that a foreign 
terrorist group on the "Attorney General's List" (actually State Department) 
receive money or physical support.  I suppose remailers could be targetted 
but that would make for an interesting case since anonymnity remains 
protected.

DCF

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQCVAwUBM/m1e4VO4r4sgSPhAQHXpAQAybcf69TTBLv8BpCZxJ+c6voZLHyd01Yo
bLmYzXc4wMJ/mSOcn0YpJ+0X3nwdWBUiPv3SoWxUHVjGTLsHR+a8Py7POfDZ5Yxf
roGnPSyhNwp0ItQONGE1BErNbz7fVOHXdhitPotIXdYeflTV1N0HWZnPPkToX/Sh
D1HqJ2osUWQ=
=ZL9P
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

On Tue, Aug 19, 1997 at 12:26:57AM +0100, Adam Back wrote:
> 
[...]
> On AP/betting pools etc., politics and governments are all about
> force.  Why should governments have a monopoly on force?

By a reasonable definition whoever has a monopoly on force *is* the
government.  A rather significant body of history indicates that 
force monopolies arise spontaneously in any society.

[...]

> If you find your own government not extreme enough to feel comfortable
> evaluating net benefits to human happiness in removal of corrupt
> government officials, perhaps you would be happier evaluating societal
> benefits of theoretically removing some 3rd world countries more
> corrupt officials.
> 
> It's not bloodlust, it's game theory...

It's actually closer to a cult -- a small group with it's own shared
reality -- a reality quite at variance with societal norms.  The cult
has its own terminology, and an underlying dogma to which these code
words refer.  The cult has "special knowledge" that has been revealed
to them concerning massive changes that will happen to society --
changes that will usher in a new world order.  These changes may 
involve the world going through a cleansing fire of war of war and 
destruction. 

The members constantly reinforce each other's beliefs with stroking
messages -- eg:

    > >Congress was indeed a horrid idea.  We need no laws other that
    > > "do what you will as long as you don't physically injure, 
    > > or steal."  All else is congressional bullshit paid in 
    > > bloody tax money.
    >
    >Amen, brother.         

Certain of the members sport a messiah or a martyr complex.  It is 
also quite common for cults to call for arming the brethren against 
the coming struggle -- even the Heaven's Gate group apparently had 
stashes of weapons.

It's all so predictable.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html

At 12:29 PM -0700 8/21/97, Duncan Frissell wrote:


>One minor difference is that most cults don't manage to convince the head of
>the FBI and various other national leaders that their scenario is possible.
>[I'm not saying that we actually convinced anyone ourselves but we certainly
>share a vision of a possible future with Freeh and various intelligence
>types.]  They talk about their fears of digital anarchy all the time.  I
>don't remember the FBI director talking about the Lamb and the Book of Rev
>like Koresh or about the saucer behind Hale-Bopp like Heaven's Gate.
>
>Not an ordinary cult.
>
>DCF
>
>"If Vince Foster had a gun he'd be alive today."

Or the variant, "If Nicole Brown Simpson had a gun, she'd be a rich widow
today."

On the subject of cults, neither do cult leaders sit on panels at the
Computers, Freedom, and Privacy conference and mingle with the leading
lawyers, law professors, NSA employees, and Justice Department
representatives.

(As I have said, though this may have been before Crispin's time on this
list, I've had polite contacts with Stuart Baker, former top counsel to the
NSA, over the years. He clearly disagrees with my political agenda, as I do
with his (though he is showing some backbone as top lawyer arguing against
the CALEA/DT provisions).

Yes, it is obviously a bit of hyperbole to say we long for the nuking of
Washington. In fact, the way this thread started, at least my involvement
in it, was by my comment that if a soft target like D.C. were to vanish in
a puff of nuclear smoke, I wouldn't cry any tears. "So sue me."

And I actually do think unbreakable crypto will have profound effects on
taxation, which the government thinks is so, also. And will make it
possible for virtual communties to communcate securely, including for the
planning and execution of freedom fighting or "terrorist" activities. The
government also agrees with this one.

Where we differ is that first, I don't worry overmuch about what some
foreigners are doing to other foreigners. I take George Washington at his
word: avoid foreign entanglements. Not America's business if the Hutus are
killing the Tutsis, or vice versa, or if the Nazis are killing the Jews, or
vice versa.

Second, we differ in that I don't think converting the U.S., or the world,
into a totalitarian, surveillance state is an acceptable price to pay to
stop some crimes. Louis Freeh believes otherwise.

Third, these forces, once unleashed, have an unfolding force of their own.
Denning admits this, Freeh admits this, Reno admits this, Baker admits
this. Which is why the government is so concerned.

Hardly the stuff of a cult, is it?

--Tim May

There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."