Re: Socio-Economic Cults (Re: Cypherpunk Cults)

Jonathan Wienke:

>It really isn't that hard to figure out that shooting a guy breaking
>through your bedroom window at 3 AM with a crowbar and a TEC-9 is a 
Good
>Thing, (at least if you value your continued existence, and that of 
your
>family) while shooting someone giving you the finger on the way in to 
work
>is a Bad Thing.  In the second case, there is no threat to your life
>involved, so there is no reason to kill anyone.  In the first case, 
there
>is.  Is this brain surgery?

Maybe not, but how about the suggestion earlier to shoot people who
are painting graffiti on your property?  What happens if someone gets
shot in that situation, or in some other gray area?  How would you
propose to handle claims that a shooting was unjustified.  Mob
justice?  Get enough people in the streets to storm the house of the
shooter?

Keep in mind that the majority of people may have views about the
proper use of force which differ from yours and mine.  Consider the
roundup of Japanese Americans during WWII.  Yes, a government action,
but one with popular support.

A Japanese man holes up in his house and shoots at those who try to
take him away.  A Caucasian man outside shoots back, fearing that the
Japanese is a spy, whose information will lead to Japanese victory in
the war.  Both men are shooting, both fear for their lives.  And in
each case, the fear could arguably be justified, based on the
information available to each man at the time.

How does your simple rule solve this case?

"John

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On Thu, 28 Aug 1997, John Smith wrote:

> A Japanese man holes up in his house and shoots at those who try to
> take him away.  A Caucasian man outside shoots back, fearing that the
> Japanese is a spy, whose information will lead to Japanese victory in
> the war.  Both men are shooting, both fear for their lives.  And in
> each case, the fear could arguably be justified, based on the
> information available to each man at the time.
> 
> How does your simple rule solve this case?
> 
> "John

Let me get this straight: a couple of federal (were they in this
case?) LEA's come to your door and say, "Come with us, you and your family
are going to prison because of the color of your skin." You say, "I am a
citizen of of the United States, and my rights are enumerated in the
Constitution. You do not have the authority to incarcerate me without due
process of law. Now please get off my property." The LEA's reply, "Hey,
we're just doing our jobs. Don't give us a hard time, you stupid Nip." You
pick up the shotgun you keep in the closet by the front door and say, "If
I have commited a crime, then arrest me. Otherwise, get off of my
property." The LEA's reply, "You just made a big mistake, bud." Twenty
minutes later they return with a fifty agents with automatic rifles and
orders to shoot to kill the "spy".

Of course, if he just "went along quietly", he would have spent a few
years rotting in an "internment camp" while his business failed or he lost
his job to someone fortunate enough to have immigrated from Italy or
Germany instead of Japan. That's better than endangering the lives or
yourself and your family, right?

You might feel that the example that you responded to was a bit too
simplistically polemic, but I think for many people, especially those in
this forum, your hypothetical situation is not at all an ethical dilemma. 


-stonedog

At 9:19 pm -0400 on 8/28/97, Tim May wrote:


> Like the Jews in Europe, the Japs were just too fucking timid and
> well-mannered.

Actually, they were subjected to hundreds of years in which weapons were
only permitted to be handled by a special warrior caste.

Sound familiar?

Which reminds me...

Peter Cassidy's just starting a book called "Fortress America", which talks
about where all the LEA money goes. You know, for useful stuff, like
armored personnel carriers, and ARs, and body armor, and flammable teargas,
and stun grenades, and black nomex balaclavas, and kevlar gloves.

Oh, well, so much for those 100,000 cops Billary promised us. Maybe it's
just as well? I mean what if we had 100,000 new cops all wanting *their*
black nomex balacalvas and kevlar gloves too...

A spook's gotta sell his toys somewhere, I suppose. It's a living, I guess.
I just wish they'd find a more useful line of work. Like lawyering, or
something...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/

>Maybe not, but how about the suggestion earlier to shoot people who
>are painting graffiti on your property?  What happens if someone gets
>shot in that situation, or in some other gray area?

This is an ideal value-added extension to all those surveillence TV cameras
springing up, especially on private property. With a bit of technology the
cameras and guns could automatically identify graffiti activity and alert a
security person or the resident. Tranc-type guns would be mounted on the
camera platforms.  The artists would often be found facedown on the
pavement when the police arrive.

--Steve

At 12:45 PM -0700 8/28/97, stonedog@ns1.net-gate.com wrote:

>Let me get this straight: a couple of federal (were they in this
>case?) LEA's come to your door and say, "Come with us, you and your family
>are going to prison because of the color of your skin." You say, "I am a
>citizen of of the United States, and my rights are enumerated in the
>Constitution. You do not have the authority to incarcerate me without due
>process of law. Now please get off my property." The LEA's reply, "Hey,
>we're just doing our jobs. Don't give us a hard time, you stupid Nip." You
>pick up the shotgun you keep in the closet by the front door and say, "If
>I have commited a crime, then arrest me. Otherwise, get off of my
>property." The LEA's reply, "You just made a big mistake, bud." Twenty
>minutes later they return with a fifty agents with automatic rifles and
>orders to shoot to kill the "spy".
>
>Of course, if he just "went along quietly", he would have spent a few
>years rotting in an "internment camp" while his business failed or he lost
>his job to someone fortunate enough to have immigrated from Italy or
>Germany instead of Japan. That's better than endangering the lives or
>yourself and your family, right?
>
>You might feel that the example that you responded to was a bit too
>simplistically polemic, but I think for many people, especially those in
>this forum, your hypothetical situation is not at all an ethical dilemma.

Whatever you do, don't interpret what some are saying on this issue at "the
view of Cypherpunks.

In my view, the arrest, detention, and internment in concentration camps of
persons of putative or confirmed Japanese ancestry was a slam dunk
violation of their constutional rights (specifically, I presume, of their
4th and 14th ("equal protection") rights.

That a "foreign entanglement," which Washington warned of, was happening
between mostly Caucasian soldiers and mostly-Mongoloid soldiers over trade
routes and colonies was no constitutional justification for these arrests
and detetentions.

And once released from these concentration camps, redress in the courts was
not possible. (Token redress was made decades later.)

The Japanese should have formed underground cells to track down and execute
those who stole their property and their freedoms. We think killing SS
arrest battallions is what the Jews should have done, so why not the same
for the battallions assigned to ship these persons to America's
concentration camps? It's still not too late. Strong crypto will make this
very possible to coordinate and carry out.

The Jews are always clamoring for Nazi criminals to be tracked down,
kidnapped, and tried, a la Eichmann, so why not the co-conspirators in this
case?

Of course, like the Jews, few Japanese were armed at the time. And even
fewer after the war (hint: any rifles or handguns they owned at the start
were _not_ returned to them in 1945.)

Other ethnic groups are less easily placed into concentration camps. Let
the fascists try putting Koreans into concentration camps, and some of
those AR-15s they used so well on the rampaging blacks and Hispanics will
kill some cops and soldiers.

Like the Jews in Europe, the Japs were just too fucking timid and
well-mannered.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

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At 03:45 PM 8/28/97 -0400, stonedog@ns1.net-gate.com wrote:

>You might feel that the example that you responded to was a bit too
>simplistically polemic, but I think for many people, especially those in
>this forum, your hypothetical situation is not at all an ethical dilemma. 

Or as I said to people waiting in line to see "Schindler's List" as I was 
leaving the theater, "When you watch this film remember that this is what 
happens when the government has all the assault rifles and the people don't."

DCF
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