Re: write up AP for FC++

A million monkeys operating under the pseudonym
 "Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>" typed:
>
> May I suggest that we abandon the term AP, as being too narrowly focused,
> and use something more academic (looks better in FC's proceedings, anyway)
> such as Anonymous Betting Pools, or some such?

<snip>

> Definitely.  Also, a legal treatment would be nice (Broiles?).  I've
> posited that ABPs rely on elements of skill rather than chance to avoid
> being tagged as gambling (e.g., Beat the Psychics).  Actually ABP could be
> viewed as an insurance policy.


Um, as soon as you broaden AP from libertarian fantasy into 
rigorous hypothesis, it turns out that it _isn't_ _anything_
but Idea Futures/insurance/ABPs/(payee-anonymous) contract 
markets plus the murderous daydream junk.


That is to say, from the rigorous (technical) point of view, 
AP _IS_ Idea Futures _IS_ ABPs _IS_ contract markets _IS_ 
insurance.


TCMay has mentioned before that AP is nothing new...


If you want some scholarly exposition, write up some definitive
treatise on AP/IF/I/ABPs/CMs as such so that in the future 
crackpots who semi-independently come up with the idea won't be
able to tie it to political fantasies or other specific 
would-be-applications in the (un-)popular consciousness.


Zooko, whose prose is JYA'ifying in frustration

P.S.  Allow me to repeat in simple words:  "'ASSASSINATION 
POLITICS' IS NOTHING BUT IDEA FUTURES PLUS CRACKPOT POLITICAL 
FANTASY!"

P.P.S.  I am not a cypherpunk.  I'm only a guest!  I didn't 
know there was marijuana in the brownies, officer!  I didn't 
PGP sign this message.  Nobody saw me do it -- you can't prove
anything.

A Visitor Writes:

>  A million monkeys operating under the pseudonym
>  "Steve Schear <azur@netcom.com>" typed:

> > May I suggest that we abandon the term AP, as being too narrowly focused,
> > and use something more academic (looks better in FC's proceedings, anyway)
> > such as Anonymous Betting Pools, or some such?

I've always been fond of the term "Non-Traditional Wagering" myself. :)

> Um, as soon as you broaden AP from libertarian fantasy into 
> rigorous hypothesis, it turns out that it _isn't_ _anything_
> but Idea Futures/insurance/ABPs/(payee-anonymous) contract 
> markets plus the murderous daydream junk.

How are Idea Futures doing these days?  Have they upgraded to real money
yet?  I recall they used to have a few interesting things in there, like
the first explicit frontal nudity on American television, and a good
algorithm for solving Max 2-SAT. 

> TCMay has mentioned before that AP is nothing new...

AP brings to anonymous contract assassinations the ability of a very large
number of people to contribute small amounts of money to a pool without
explicit collaboration.  As you have said, this is Idea Futures in a
nutshell.  Of course, I suspect the Idea Futures folk would balk at
writing options on the lives of Clinton, Reno, Freeh, or Potts.  Then
again, if armed Federal Agents shot their families, maybe not. :) 

We do really need to put something together on Jim Bell soon.  People have
been asking about my .sig and I am getting tired of relating the long tale
to each and every one of them. 

Could someone take responsibility for getting all the publicly released
documents together in one place and perhaps posting a "Jim Bell Home Page"
to Eternity?

--
     Mike Duvos         $    PGP 2.6 Public Key available     $
     enoch@zipcon.com   $    via Finger                       $
         {Free Cypherpunk Political Prisoner Jim Bell}

At 9:32 AM -0700 8/18/97, Zooko Journeyman wrote:
...
>Um, as soon as you broaden AP from libertarian fantasy into
>rigorous hypothesis, it turns out that it _isn't_ _anything_
>but Idea Futures/insurance/ABPs/(payee-anonymous) contract
>markets plus the murderous daydream junk.
>
>
>That is to say, from the rigorous (technical) point of view,
>AP _IS_ Idea Futures _IS_ ABPs _IS_ contract markets _IS_
>insurance.

Yes.

>TCMay has mentioned before that AP is nothing new...
>

Yes. And I've just about given up saying this. If Bell wants to believe he
invented anonymous payments, betting markets, idea futures, etc., let him.
(Note that I'm not saying I invented these things, either. However, I've
posted many articles, and included much material in my 1994
"Cyphernomicon," about markets for contract murder, the implications of
untraceability, etc. Adding the "betting on a date that J. Random Fed dies"
is just an obfuscation of the underlying notions.)

David Chaum was well aware of these implications when I talked to him in
1988 about my then-new ideas; several of us have surmised that he has
chosen to downplay such notions, and their implications, for various
reasons. Denning, too, has discussed these ideas, partly in response to a
paper I did for a conference in Monte Carlo (and reprinted in the Internet
Journal, possibly still available on the New someplace under the exact
title "Crypto Anarchy and Virtual Communities").

It was Hal Finney who encountered Bell in a Usenet group, talking about
arranging betting pools on the death dates of people. Bell at that time was
unaware, by his own admission, of blinded cash, anonymous payment systems,
etc. Finney suggested to Bell that he read some of my stuff and that he get
on the Cypherpunks list (or something similar to this...I think Hal sent me
one of Bell's posts, etc., back in the early fall of 1995 or so).

I'm now mildly amused that Bell is being seen as the inventor of anonymous
and untraceable murder markets, with clueless journalists seeking
information on his discovery. But, hey, better he rot in jail than me.

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

At 11:42 AM -0700 8/18/97, Mike Duvos wrote:

>We do really need to put something together on Jim Bell soon.  People have
>been asking about my .sig and I am getting tired of relating the long tale
>to each and every one of them.

Whom are the "we" in this "We really need to put something together..."?

I certainly don't plan to be part of the "we," and this sounds perilously
close to the notion that members of this mailing list are part of some sort
of collective entity, with goals, charters, action plans, officers, oh my.

As for info on Jim Bell, the article by Declan is widely available, and is
quite informative. As for elaborating it further, or including more
boilerplate, this seems pointless. Anyone knew to the story can read
Declan's article. Anyone seeking even more information presumably knows how
to use search engines and should be able to find the various essays and
articles directly.


>Could someone take responsibility for getting all the publicly released
>documents together in one place and perhaps posting a "Jim Bell Home Page"
>to Eternity?

Sounds good to me. Let us know when you've finished it.

(If I sound testy, sorry. It's just that it's been a while since I've heard
this "we should get together and so suchandsuch" stuff.  The notion that
Cypherpunks are some sort of collective is not real useful. Nor is building
a page devoted to Bell's "one trick pony" terribly interesting. Yes, people
are clueless and ask "Who is Jim Bell?" So? Tell them to use search
engines; a HotBot search on "James Dalton Bell" just returned 1078 matches,
several of them on the first page directly applicable. Obviously various
Boolean searches on AP, Bell, IRS, etc. would act in the predictable way.)

--Tim May


There's something wrong when I'm a felon under an increasing number of laws.
Only one response to the key grabbers is warranted: "Death to Tyrants!"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
tcmay@got.net  408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

Yep, you can find my Netly News article on Jim Bell at
http://netlynews.com/ -- search in the archives for Assassination.

I have a longer, 6-page, writeup of the Bell saga in last month's Internet
Underground magazine.

Back to my vacation...

-Declan




On Mon, 18 Aug 1997, Tim May wrote:
> As for info on Jim Bell, the article by Declan is widely available, and is
> quite informative. As for elaborating it further, or including more
> boilerplate, this seems pointless. Anyone knew to the story can read
> Declan's article. Anyone seeking even more information presumably knows how
> to use search engines and should be able to find the various essays and
> articles directly.