Plea from a parent who wants to keep their kid free of SSNs

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 08:12:58 +0000
From: "David C. Treibs" <sirdavid@ktc.com>
To: "(David C. Treibs)" < (SirDavid@ktc.com)>
Subject: Need Help with IRS Problems

                                        David C. Treibs
                                        Fredericksburg, TX 78624
                                        sirdavid@ktc.com

Hi.

We are in trouble with the IRS, and we need help.

For religious reasons (explained below), we do not have Social Security
numbers for our children, the oldest of 4 being 5 years old.

Last year we sent in our return, as we have always done, without SSNs
for our children. My wife and I do have social security numbers, and we
sent those. IRS sent us a letter saying they were disallowing our
exemptions since we had no SSNs for them. They gave us the opportunity
to contest their disallowance, which we did by sending them our
children's birth certificates; and letters from our parents, and a letter
from our pediatrician, stating the children we claimed were indeed our
children and our dependents. We don't have a problem proving that we are
claiming legitimate dependents.

IRS accepted the information we sent them, and accepted our exemptions.

This year we again sent IRS our return without numbers for our children,
but this time we included the letter of acceptance for last year's
return, and again they said they are disallowing our exemptions, and
they want $1,175.79. I called the telephone number on the letter and
spoke with the lady who answered, explaining what we did last year and
how the IRS accepted our tax return. The lady said "now we have new
rules." She asked, "What religion are you," as if it mattered. When I
told her we were Christians, she paused as though to consult some
paperwork, and then she said, "those children need social security
numbers or you cannot claim them." She mentioned the Tax Reform Act of
1996 and Publication 553 as being the enabling documents that brought on
this change.

That same day I called U.S. Rep. Lamar Smith's office and explained the
situation. The nice lady in the San Antonio office said she would pass
the information to the Kerrville office, and they would do what they
could. The lady in the Kerrville office made several inquiries. She
repeatedly said we had the right to appeal, and she sent us a copy of:

--Internal Revenue Code: Income, Estate, Gift, Employment and Excise
Taxes ss 1001-End As of Sept 15, 1996, Volume 2. Subtitle F, Ch. 61B,
Sec 6109(a)-6109(h).

    Sec. 6109(e)--Repealed
    Is the rather odd heading for the only part I could find in the
    portion of the Code they sent me that says you must have a SSN or
    you will not be allowed an exemption. I wonder if that means the
    section is repealed? But then, the probably have it in some other
    section that the SSN is required. See IRC Sec. 151 (97) below.

--What appears to be a news release titled:
Valid Taxpayer Identification Numbers Needed For Returns
1996 IRB LEXIS 344; IR-96-50

--Internal Revenue Code...This section is current through 105-15,
approved 5/15/97.
Subtitle A. Income Taxes
Chapter 1. Normal Taxes and Surtaxes
Subchapter B. Computation of Taxable Income
Part V. Deductions for Personal Exemptions

    IRC Sec. 151 (1997)

    (e) says no exemption will be allowed unless the Taxpayer
    Identification Number is included on the return.

At present we are awaiting a letter from IRS, which we assume will state
that we must either provide SSNs for our children or pay up, and they
will probably give us 60 days or less to do either.

Having received the above distressing information, we called a San
Antonio, Texas, CPA, Ken Flint, a former IRS agent who now specializes
in helping people in trouble with the IRS. He said it would cost us more
to fight them than to simply pay the extra money. He sounded
sympathetic, if somewhat busy, and told us we could do the appeal if we
knew the law and IRS procedures. Unfortunately, I know neither.

Perhaps at this stage you could help us. I need to hear from someone who
has successfully appealed this sort of thing and won.

What are the applicable laws?
What is the case law in this matter?
What are the IRS procedures in these matters?

Are there any laws that might give us an out, such as the Religious
Rights Restoration Act, and other such high sounding laws?

Is there an attorney out there who wants to make a precedent out of this
for us and all the other like-minded folks?

If you have no direct knowledge of IRS laws and procedures, perhaps you
could pass this to a forum or organization or individual who could.

While we are aware of the various movements such as the sovereign
citizen, the patriots, tax protesters, and so on, we prefer to work
within the system to win our case. This is simply our preference.

We don't have a problem with proving that we are not making bogus claims
on our tax returns. We'd be happy to give them whatever reasonable proof
they want. We do have a big problem with giving our children a
government number.

The Bible gives the responsibility of raising children to parents, not
to the government or any other entity.

Forcing Social Security Numbers on children represents a major violation
of parents' God-given responsibility.

The SSN's powers can be divided into two basic categories: monitoring
and control; neither of which is within government's purview in dealing
with children. These are entirely the parents' job, Hillary Clinton's
postulations that "It Takes a Village" notwithstanding.

Once a child has a SSN, they are forever a blip on the government radar,
to be tracked, and to be the recipient of whatever government decides it
must foist upon children and their families.

SSN's are already used in our public school district to track students.
Much of their test scores and who knows what personal data is in the
district's computers, including a SSN. The district told us it probably
won't be long before all this data is sent to the state, and how long
will it be before this information ends up with the federal government?

The Clintons are working to push us into nationalized health care,
including government health care for children. Did you ever wonder how
they plan to track all these children, to ensure they are receiving all
the "benefits" of their plans? Very likely, the SSN. The "benefits"
might include "inoculations" against pregnancy, which amounts to
powerful birth control/abortifacient drugs, parental consent not needed
or desired. Then, of course, there is the "education,"
accompanying this government intrusion into child health, which is
irreconcilably opposed to my beliefs.

The Clintons are also working to push us into the UN Rights of the Child
Treaty, which shifts many parental rights and responsibilities to the
government. The Clintons want to bypass parents and directly access
children. How do you think they plan to monitor and enforce compliance
with this horrible treaty? The SSN, in my opinion.

Once every child has a SSN, it will also be easier for the state to
nose in on the parent's job. With the recent birth of our fourth child,
we were told that a state social worker from the welfare department
would be visiting our home, and the home of everyone who has a child. If
our child had a SSN, they could easily computerize all her data and then
link it to any other data from us, our other children, and so on. It
could be done without SSNs, but it would be more difficult and time
consuming, and on a large scale, next to impossible.

The state of Texas provides a good example of what a state will do when
given access to the power of the SSN. Starting this year Texas requires
SSNs to issue a driver's license. Now that they have linked the
driver's license with a SSN, they can easily access a person's records,
including court records, and anyone not paying child support may be
denied a driver's license. This is just one example of the power of the
SSN, and how government can use it to force its agenda on the populace.

Whatever government grants or allows, it can withhold or restrict based
on whatever is politically correct at the time, if they have the tools
to do so. When people who disagree with you hold power over you, and
when they want to extend that power to your children, you better be
ready for trouble.

The SSN enables anyone with access to the right data bases to know every
address you ever had; details about your job, income, and taxes; school
records; all financial transactions not made with greenbacks; probably
all your telephone and utility details, including all your phone calls;
doctor, hospital, and other medical details; all court and police
records; and on and on and endlessly on.

This is all your personal information, available to government at the
snap of a finger, and this information is power. Now imagine if every
child has a SSN, that power will extend down to the womb even more than
it does now.

We are not willing to give the government power over our children. Why
should we, when children are none of government's business until they
reach adulthood? Why tempt government with all that power, when they
have already proven they will abuse it?


                   For Liberty,
                   David C. Treibs (sirdavid@ktc.com)

At 3:00 pm -0400 on 9/25/97, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> For religious reasons (explained below), we do not have Social Security
> numbers for our children, the oldest of 4 being 5 years old.

Move to Saipan (US Territory, Northern Mariana Islands)?
I don't know why I think so, but I think that residents don't have to file
tax returns.

Nope. Now that I think about it, as a US citizen, you're liable for income
taxes no matter where you are in the world. As we've said here before on
cypherpunks, the only other country in the world where this is the case is
the post-Marcos Phillipenes.

Or maybe Puerto Rico, I seem to remember they had special tax status.
(Nawww. They're more statist than we are, even if they're nominally
independant.)

Of course, all this points up what Tim has said here all along, Duncan's
esteemed financial creativity aside. If you're an American, you can run,
but you can't hide.

Pray the Y2K problem (or maybe digital transaction settlement) kills the
IRS, I suppose...

All of which makes me think that the US is Athens of the modern world.
Delian League and all.

Though I shudder to think who the Spartans are going to be. Unless they're
us, I guess. :-).


Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/

We also did not provide our children's SSNs for the last few years.  We
obtained and supplied them rather than fight the IRS.  In the Social
Security Number FAQ <http://www.cpsr.org/cpsr/privacy/ssn/ssn.faq.html>
is this section:

Registering your Children

The Family Support Act of 1988 (Pub. L. 100-485) requires states to require
parents to give their Social Security Numbers in order to get a birth
certificate issued for a newborn. The law allows the requirement to be
waived for "good cause", but there's no indication of what may qualify.

Section 1615 of the Small Business Job Protection Act of 1996 strengthened
the requirement for taxpayers to report SSNs for dependents over one year
of age when they are claimed as a deduction. ( H.R.3448
<http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d104:h.r.03448:>, became PL104-188
8/20/96.) The new law allows the IRS to treat listing a dependent without
including an SSN as if it were an arithmetic error. This apparently means
that the taxpayer isn't allowed to petition the tax court.

/pbp

At 12:00 PM -0700 9/25/97, Declan McCullagh forwarded:
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 08:12:58 +0000
>From: "David C. Treibs" <sirdavid@ktc.com>
>To: "(David C. Treibs)" < (SirDavid@ktc.com)>
>Subject: Need Help with IRS Problems
>
>                                        David C. Treibs
>                                        Fredericksburg, TX 78624
>                                        sirdavid@ktc.com
>
>Hi.
>
>We are in trouble with the IRS, and we need help.
>
>For religious reasons (explained below), we do not have Social Security
>numbers for our children, the oldest of 4 being 5 years old.

This sounds like one for the ACLU.  They frequently take religious freedom
cases.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | Internal surveillance      | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | helped make the USSR the   | 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | nation it is today.        | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA

Well, seeing how Mr. Treibs is not a Nazi, satan worshipper, or pagan
fundamentalist, I doubt that the ACLU will want much to do with him.

	- John Bishop

Please encrypt all important correspondance with PGP.  My key available by
sending a blank message to "moonwick-pgp@iquest.net".  All unsolicited
e-mail sent to any of my addresses will incur a US$500 downloading &
deletion charge.

	"Real men don't need backups!"
		- Linus Torvalds, author of Linux, while rewriting the
		  e2fs filesystem code.

On Thu, 25 Sep 1997, Bill Frantz wrote:

> At 12:00 PM -0700 9/25/97, Declan McCullagh forwarded:
> >---------- Forwarded message ----------
> >Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 08:12:58 +0000
> >From: "David C. Treibs" <sirdavid@ktc.com>
> >To: "(David C. Treibs)" < (SirDavid@ktc.com)>
> >Subject: Need Help with IRS Problems
> >
> >                                        David C. Treibs
> >                                        Fredericksburg, TX 78624
> >                                        sirdavid@ktc.com
> >
> >Hi.
> >
> >We are in trouble with the IRS, and we need help.
> >
> >For religious reasons (explained below), we do not have Social Security
> >numbers for our children, the oldest of 4 being 5 years old.
> 
> This sounds like one for the ACLU.  They frequently take religious freedom
> cases.
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Bill Frantz       | Internal surveillance      | Periwinkle -- Consulting
> (408)356-8506     | helped make the USSR the   | 16345 Englewood Ave.
> frantz@netcom.com | nation it is today.        | Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA
> 
>

At 9:27 PM -0700 9/25/97, John Bishop wrote:

>sending a blank message to "moonwick-pgp@iquest.net".  All unsolicited
>e-mail sent to any of my addresses will incur a US$500 downloading &
>deletion charge.

Oh yeah? How do you plan to collect?

Maybe I'll see you in court.

(P.S. I did not "solicit" your e-mail to me....and my fee is 10 ounces of
gold, payable immediately.)

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^1398269     | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

> (P.S. I did not "solicit" your e-mail to me....and my fee is 10 ounces of
> gold, payable immediately.)

Flesh is always a better form of payment I find.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"

This may go against your religious wishes, but listing your children
with SSNs of public figures may allow you to bypass the IRS computer
that checks if the child has a valid SSN listed, without getting SSNs
that 'belong to' your children.

"Yes, I did name my children Richard Nixon and Bill Clinton, in the
hopes that they'll grow up facist."

Adam


Declan McCullagh wrote:
| 
| 
| ---------- Forwarded message ----------
| Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 08:12:58 +0000
| From: "David C. Treibs" <sirdavid@ktc.com>
| To: "(David C. Treibs)" < (SirDavid@ktc.com)>
| Subject: Need Help with IRS Problems
| 
|                                         David C. Treibs
|                                         Fredericksburg, TX 78624
|                                         sirdavid@ktc.com
| 
| Hi.
| 
| We are in trouble with the IRS, and we need help.
| 
| For religious reasons (explained below), we do not have Social Security
| numbers for our children, the oldest of 4 being 5 years old.
| 
| Last year we sent in our return, as we have always done, without SSNs
| for our children. My wife and I do have social security numbers, and we
| sent those. IRS sent us a letter saying they were disallowing our
| exemptions since we had no SSNs for them. They gave us the opportunity
| to contest their disallowance, which we did by sending them our
| children's birth certificates; and letters from our parents, and a letter
| from our pediatrician, stating the children we claimed were indeed our
| children and our dependents. We don't have a problem proving that we are
| claiming legitimate dependents.
| 

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume

Go get yourself a copy of "Blows Against The Empire", a ~1970 album
by Paul Kantner, Jefferson Airplane, and friends;
there's a nice song about a couple who don't want their new baby to grow up
and get drafted.   "Maybe we just won't tell them about him...."

At 09:31 AM 09/26/1997 -0400, Adam Shostack wrote:
>This may go against your religious wishes, but listing your children
>with SSNs of public figures may allow you to bypass the IRS computer
>that checks if the child has a valid SSN listed, without getting SSNs
>that 'belong to' your children.

Nope.  Putting false information in tax returns is far more illegal
than refusing to put desired information in them.  
If the government insists that they'll extort more money from you
if you fail to register your children as good little possessions of the state,
take it or leave it or talk to the ACLU or the National Taxpayers' Union.
You could refuse to pay, but I agree that refusing to pay extortion to
well-armed people who outnumber you is sometimes more trouble than paying,
and you may not want the hassle.  Another approach is checking out the various
tax havens and seeing if you can get yourself hired by some Anguillan
corporation
that covers your business expenses; some people I knew who were in college on
company-sponsored scholarships decided to be on extended business trips,
so the apartment and food and 7 cents per mile driving costs in the college
town
were unreimbursed business expenses -- there's a lot of interesting stuff
you can
pay accountants to help you with, and maybe you'll break even.
You could even become a Puerto Rican resident, though that's easier if you
speak 
Spanish, and maybe you're also on a long business trip away from your home
in PR.


				Thanks!
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639