Re: Remailers and ecash (fwd)

Forwarded message:

> Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 17:37:58 -0400
> From: ghio@temp0120.myriad.ml.org (Matthew Ghio)
> Subject: Re: Remailers and ecash

>        Anonymity is one thing which you cannot have
>        without also giving it to others.

This isn't strictly true. I can send an email from an anon account to my
friend Bob. At this point I know who I am, I know who Bob is, Bob knows who
Bob is, *but* Bob doesn't know who I am. Clearly I obtained anonymity
without anyone else gaining it. The only time that complete anonymity is
obtained is if both sender and recipient are using anon accounts.

> In order for a remailer operator to afford himself the benefits of
> anonymous communication by establishing and using a remailer, he must
> allow others to use the remailer also.  This is why it is economical
> (for some people) to operate free remailers.

Well a single user is going to make traffic analysis a bit simplistic.
Though this reducion to absurdity does serve to make a clear point about
anonymity and traffic level. Clearly large traffic flows are required to
maintane the anonymity for any usable length of time.

> It has been suggested that it would be possible to increase the number
> of remailers by providing financial incentives to the remailer operators
> in the form of a small fee per message relayed.  While that tactic might
> achieve its stated purpose, it would simeultaneously reduce the number
> of remailer users to those who were willing to pay the fee.

Only if the fee was something they would notice, milli-cent fees are not
something most people will notice. I think you are unwittingly getting near
the mark however. In short your comment about incentives to the operators,
include in there the users and you have a winning combination. The question
should be expanded thusly:

What would motivate an average consumer to use an anonymous remailer?

Clearly simple anonymity or writing nasty letters to Grandma anonymously are
not going to motivate most folks irrespective of cost - they simply have no
interest in such activities. So, the question becomes:

What besides raising hell anonymously, laundering money, and defeating
merchant purchase traffic analysis are commercial anonymous remailers good
for?

Jim Choate wrote:

> What would motivate an average consumer to use an anonymous remailer?
> 
> Clearly simple anonymity or writing nasty letters to Grandma anonymously are
> not going to motivate most folks irrespective of cost - they simply have no
> interest in such activities. So, the question becomes:
> 
> What besides raising hell anonymously, laundering money, and defeating
> merchant purchase traffic analysis are commercial anonymous remailers good
> for?

Okay, let's take a look at what remailers are actually being used for.
Go to dejanews and type in the addresses of all the remailers you know of,
count the number of posts to each newsgroup and add them up.  Here are the
top twenty newsgroups that I got when I did this little experiment:

  10471	alt.anonymous.messages
   7272	alt.test
   6236	alt.hackintosh
   4392	alt.binaries.mac.games
   1326	misc.test
   1253	alt.religion.scientology
   1109	alt.sex.stories
   1023	soc.culture.singapore
    915	alt.amazon-women.admirers
    877	soc.culture.iranian
    770	alt.anonymous
    622	fj.news.usage
    573	alt.politics.nationalism.white
    571	alt.sex.spanking
    557	talk.politics.guns
    543	alt.tv.real-world
    518	alt.cracks
    517	alt.drugs.pot.cultivation
    512	alt.privacy.anon-server
    498	alt.revisionism


So what are remailers being used for?

 1) Private communication in the form of anonymous message pools
 2) Test posts
 3) Discussion of Macintosh computers
 4) Discussion of obscure religions
 5) Sharing erotic fantasy stories
 6) Avoiding censorship in Singapore
 7) Avoiding censorship in Iran
 8) Discussion of remailers themselves
 9) Discussion of controvertial political topics (racism, guns, drugs)
10) Discussion about a TV show


Note that this list does not include harassing Grandma, money laundering,
and all your other delusional terrorist fantasies.  Welcome to the real
world.

Jim Choate <ravage@ssz.com> wrote:

> What besides raising hell anonymously, laundering money, and defeating
> merchant purchase traffic analysis are commercial anonymous remailers
> good for?

Avoiding spam.  Anyone who doesn't use remailers is sure to get their
mailbox full of crap.

Employment related concerns.  I know of many people on this list who
have had problems along these lines.

The rest of your comment is utterly stupid.  How many people do you
know who use remailers to launder money?  Zero, I'd bet.  You need to
spend a little less time listening to mindless political rants and more
time observing the real world.