Re: in defense of Lon Horiuchi

When I posted "in defense of Lon Horiuchi" I had intended not
to follow up on the thread, but the several responses I've
read (which were more reasoned and polite than I had expected--
thanks guys) indicate that I didn't explain myself clearly.


It was not my intention to argue that Lon Horiuchi is a good
guy, that he fulfilled his responsibilities with appropriate 
care, that he's a good shot, that he worked in an honorable 
profession, that he is blameless in the death of the child, or
such.  (I may or may not _believe_ some of these propositions,
but I'll spare you for you the full littany of my opinions.)  
All I intended to assert was that Lon Horiuchi is almost 
certainly not the malicious baby-killing murderer that 
Anonymous portrayed.


There are many issues one could legitimately argue regarding
a policeman who accidentally kills a non-combatant bystander
during a fight.  But comparing such a policemen to a
terrorist who deliberately targets non-combatants with a bomb
is beyond the pale.  That, but for my interruption, this
comparison would have passed unremarked among the cypherpunks
crowd is damning.



Why I'm posting:

I don't expect that merely because of my contradiction the
more rabid cypherpunks will suddenly throw off their twin
blinders of ideology and hatred.  Neither do I desire that
they retreat into closed conversation where they can continue
their self-inflaming rants without fear of interruption.  My
motivation in posting critical articles like these is primarily
because there are a great number of silent readers of the 
cpunks list, and some of these people, perhaps being young or
inexperienced, may consider such vile slanders to be 
self-evident truths if they continually see them pass 
unchallenged.



Regards,

Zooko

Zooko Journeyman wrote:
> All I intended to assert was that Lon Horiuchi is almost
> certainly not the malicious baby-killing murderer that
> Anonymous portrayed.

  That is *not*at*all* certain.
  Others turned down the job because they didn't want to risk
becoming baby-killing murderers.
 
> But comparing such a policemen to a
> terrorist who deliberately targets non-combatants with a bomb
> is beyond the pale.  

  How about comparing him to a handful of BATF agents who scoot
out of the building to be bombed, leaving the non-combatants 
behind without warning them of the danger?
  Is that a good comparison?

> That, but for my interruption, this
> comparison would have passed unremarked among the cypherpunks
> crowd is damning.

  You are certainly assuming an awful lot, here. If you hadn't
butted in, some of us who agree with him would have taken the
opposite position just to be contrary sons of bitches.
 
> I don't expect that merely because of my contradiction the
> more rabid cypherpunks will suddenly throw off their twin
> blinders of ideology and hatred.  Neither do I desire that
> they retreat into closed conversation where they can continue
> their self-inflaming rants without fear of interruption.

  Had a toilet plunger stuck up your ass, lately, Zooko?
Is that why you didn't waddle on over to Waco and watch those
nice LEA's help those Bible-thumpers out of the compound?
  What's the matter? You miss the Nazis? Sorry we butted into
your politics over there. We could send you some FBI guys as
replacements.

>  My
> motivation in posting critical articles like these is primarily
> because there are a great number of silent readers of the
> cpunks list, and some of these people, perhaps being young or
> inexperienced, may consider such vile slanders to be
> self-evident truths if they continually see them pass
> unchallenged.

  Zooko, I'm very happy for you, living in a country where the
LEA's apparently kiss the citizens on the lips when they meet.
Go suck on a toilet plunger while burning some babies and give
some thought to moving to the New Amerika.
  We'll have Rodney King meet you at the airport. Ask him to
show you how fast his car can go.

  How about we divvy up the duties of teaching these young,
inexperienced readers the truths of life.
  You teach them how to say "Heil Hitler!" and we'll teach them
how to say "Lock and Load!" Their future is going to be mighty
dim if they don't know how to say one or the other.

TruthMonger

Zooko Journeyman wrote:

> All I intended to assert was that Lon Horiuchi is almost
> certainly not the malicious baby-killing murderer that
> Anonymous portrayed.

The Netly News Network (http://netlynews.com/)
September 10, 1997
Building in Big Brother
By Declan McCullagh (declan@well.com)
  
    Hoover despised Martin Luther King, Jr. -- branding him an
   "obsessive degenerate" -- and once sent him an anonymous letter,
using
   information gathered through illegal surveillance, to encourage the
   depressed civil rights leader to commit suicide. Hoover's legacy?
   Having the FBI headquarters bear his name today.

Zooko. Maybe the agent just asks them to commit suicide.

Alec
"How many of them FBI agents did you say you wanted us to send you?"

> There are many issues one could legitimately argue regarding
> a policeman who accidentally kills a non-combatant bystander
> during a fight.  But comparing such a policemen to a
> terrorist who deliberately targets non-combatants with a bomb
> is beyond the pale.  That, but for my interruption, this
> comparison would have passed unremarked among the cypherpunks
> crowd is damning.

	I think the point, Zooko, is that the sniper didn't 
"accidentally" kill the woman and her baby. It was a deliberate 
shot. If it wasn't a deliberate shot, then not only is the 
shooter criminally negligent, but so is the person who handed 
him the rifle. 

> Why I'm posting:
> I don't expect that merely because of my contradiction the
> more rabid cypherpunks will suddenly throw off their twin
> blinders of ideology and hatred.  Neither do I desire that

	There is no (or little) hatred of individuals here. There
is hatred for ideologies, beliefs, and points of view. I don't hate
you. I don't know you. I might hate you if I knew you, it is a 
stastically probability, but until we meet, who knows. I DO hate 
big intrusive governments. I don't see the problem there. 
	
	I do hate the politics of the Big Lie, and the politics of 
mob rule. I don't see the problem there. 

	I do hate spending 1/3 to 1/2 of my working hours supporting 
lazy good for nothing bums. No, I am not talking about welfare reciepents,
I am talking about Government workers. I don't see a problem with this. 

> because there are a great number of silent readers of the 
> cpunks list, and some of these people, perhaps being young or
> inexperienced, may consider such vile slanders to be 
> self-evident truths if they continually see them pass 
> unchallenged.

	Post a challenge, not erroneous "facts".

On Fri, 12 Sep 1997 03:19:30 -0600, you wrote:
[snip]
>  How about we divvy up the duties of teaching these young,
>inexperienced readers the truths of life.
>  You teach them how to say "Heil Hitler!" and we'll teach them
>how to say "Lock and Load!" Their future is going to be mighty
>dim if they don't know how to say one or the other.
>
>TruthMonger
>

I fear it will be a dim future if they must learn those phrases as
well.

-Doug
-------------------
Douglas L. Peterson
mailto:fnorky@geocities.com
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Heights/1271/