Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using the Internet or crypto"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

Alex Le Heux wrote:
>Maybe you haven't noticed, but seen on 2000 year scales, the entire
>world is constantly in a state of war. Europe isn't special in that
>regard.

I guess the conclusion, then, is that gun control is bad for the whole
world, not just Europe.

>And even if I had my AR15 then, it wouldn't help me a lot against
>guided missiles and mortar fire.

It's harder to police a hostile population which is well armed.

>And anyway, "to defend yourself in a war" is not one of the usual
>arguments against gun control.

The popularity of an argument can be independent of its worth.

"To defend yourself in general" is commonly used.  War, oppressive
government, and political turbulence are the most likely situations in
which people need their weapons, even in the United States.

>> You must be getting some good drugs over there to conjure up this
>> fantasy land where everyone loves one another and would never think
>> of killing someone because it sure as hell doesn't exist in Europe.
>
>Well, we're a lot closer to it over here than you guys are over
>there.

You mean like the former Yugoslavia?  Or do you mean like the parts of
Europe where people are not slaughtering each other at the moment?

I have to confess that I am surprised at the level of resentment among
the members of various Europeans countries feel towards other European
countries.  For example, the Germans don't like the Dutch because when
they visit they are treated badly by, among others, the police.  The
Dutch don't like the Germans because, well, they got to know them a
little too well in the 1940s and they are nursing the grudge.

With that sort of situation, anything can happen and it can happen
quickly, even if things seem mellow right now.  And these little
resentments and jealousies are felt between far more groups in Europe
than just between the Dutchies and the Germans.

Let's also take a look at the Dutch performance during their
occupation.  While there certainly were many courageous Dutch people
who helped refugees (at great personal risk, to say the least), and
there were many courageous Dutch people who were in the resistance,
there were also many Dutch people who did not perform so well.  Not
only were a large number of Jewish people turned in by Dutch
informers, but there were even Dutch SS units.

I basically think well of the Netherlands and its people, but it is
important to recognize that certain unpleasant characteristics exist
in a large portion of the population of even a nice country.  It is
unlucky to pretend that these characteristics can never be expressed.

Let's turn to the Western Hemisphere: El Salvador.  During much of the
1980s, the U.S. government supported groups of people in El Salvador
who were sending out death squads to murder their suspected opponents.
The U.S. certainly acquiesced in this activity - of this there is no
doubt.  But, it is not unlikely the U.S. was more directly involved.
(Only fifteen years earlier the U.S. was doing the same thing in
Vietnam.)

What would have happened if the citizens of El Salvador were
adequately armed?  One thing you wouldn't see is a death squad going
into a neighborhood to kick down some innocent's door and murder him
or his family.  At least, you wouldn't see it twice.

Likewise, when the communist guerrillas were forcing (maybe) the
peasantry to support them, the peasants would have no need to
cooperate unwillingly if they were well armed.

People who are well armed are less likely to become pawns, victims, or
slaves.  That is desirable.

Incidentally, the consistent support the U.S. government has shown for
murderous or even genocidal governments is of great concern to those
of us who live in the U.S.  It is unlikely that these tactics won't be
used here were there a serious political struggle and a disarmed
population.

An issue that might possibly blossom into such a political struggle is
mass surveillance.  While the mass media is, for the most part, giving
everything the government's spin, and while large numbers of
Congressmen and other denizens of Washington, D.C. think it's a good
idea, the bulk of the population is not happy about this at all.  They
can read the writing on the wall.  The potential for conflict between
the political class, which has a long history of murder and even
assassination, and the American people exists right now.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.html

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2

iQEVAwUBNDKo45aWtjSmRH/5AQG/KAf/ViGabpr8OnP2UYZ/CZAKQ4czRzVlx7Az
Dcb0mqxnhNmQ7o5YJQlodbrmI3cEbXb0/YeTaX9r2pmxhtz06hekCTa28ZoycspB
aCzoWLuZW1et9zNTYQzfDADLPPoLDizHG/zHPpWH97t/8NgQOXmQXS1qccNkylMl
LghngUR+2YXlmB0omNLy1e6hQCzjkgUlxYE5T5Aimn0WpTmHk4yn9HwOdGXC2gvU
idX5qlQUkwhxuEqOgN/p++tzv22Fi8W3RaIusrMzJV2dU3326IEwsJzFY3UI8xh2
M1bZCWTA6TlBBJoqbugt4gqvhAT0/yH6kJdLjDdYlKsEUVM3nfctfQ==
=STNd
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org> writes:

>I have to confess that I am surprised at the level of resentment among
>the members of various Europeans countries feel towards other European
>countries.  For example, the Germans don't like the Dutch because when
>they visit they are treated badly by, among others, the police.

Nonsense.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 2 Oct 1997 00:24:27 +0200, Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org> wrote:


>Alex Le Heux wrote:
>>Maybe you haven't noticed, but seen on 2000 year scales, the entire
>>world is constantly in a state of war. Europe isn't special in that
>>regard.
>
>I guess the conclusion, then, is that gun control is bad for the
whole
>world, not just Europe.

Eh, no. The conclusion would be that gun control or no gun control
does not affect the amount of war in the world at all.

>>And even if I had my AR15 then, it wouldn't help me a lot against
>>guided missiles and mortar fire.
>
>It's harder to police a hostile population which is well armed.

True, but imho this will only result in more people getting killed.
Any invader would not beat about the bush in the US, they'll make very
clear that they'll have nothing to do with citicens defending their
own homes. They'll just blow up the home from a distance.

>>And anyway, "to defend yourself in a war" is not one of the usual
>>arguments against gun control.
>
>The popularity of an argument can be independent of its worth.
>
>"To defend yourself in general" is commonly used.  War, oppressive
>government, and political turbulence are the most likely situations
in
>which people need their weapons, even in the United States.

Bullshit. People in the US rarely use their weapons against oppressive
governments or political turbulence. Most guns that are used against
another person there are used to commit crime or to defend against
those armed criminals.

>>> You must be getting some good drugs over there to conjure up this
>>> fantasy land where everyone loves one another and would never
think
>>> of killing someone because it sure as hell doesn't exist in
Europe.
>>
>>Well, we're a lot closer to it over here than you guys are over
>>there.
>
>You mean like the former Yugoslavia?  Or do you mean like the parts
of
>Europe where people are not slaughtering each other at the moment?
>
>I have to confess that I am surprised at the level of resentment
among
>the members of various Europeans countries feel towards other
European
>countries.  For example, the Germans don't like the Dutch because
when
>they visit they are treated badly by, among others, the police.  The
>Dutch don't like the Germans because, well, they got to know them a
>little too well in the 1940s and they are nursing the grudge.
>
>With that sort of situation, anything can happen and it can happen
>quickly, even if things seem mellow right now.  And these little
>resentments and jealousies are felt between far more groups in Europe
>than just between the Dutchies and the Germans.

Excuse me? Have you ever even been in Europe? In the last 50 years I
mean? You are so full of shit here, it's incredible. I hereby invite
you to come over, and stay a while. I have a comfy couch.

Anyone in Europe can go anywhere else, and be treated reasonably to
very well. We in Europe have put the crap of WWII behind us a long
time ago. Something that you haven't managed to do apparently.

The Dutch are absolutely not 'nursing a grudge'. Come and visit.
You'll see.

>Let's also take a look at the Dutch performance during their
>occupation.  While there certainly were many courageous Dutch people
>who helped refugees (at great personal risk, to say the least), and
>there were many courageous Dutch people who were in the resistance,
>there were also many Dutch people who did not perform so well.  Not
>only were a large number of Jewish people turned in by Dutch
>informers, but there were even Dutch SS units.

You have a nerve. You, coming from a country where people are still
regularly killed in the name of racism, tell me this?!

>I basically think well of the Netherlands and its people, but it is
>important to recognize that certain unpleasant characteristics exist
>in a large portion of the population of even a nice country.  It is
>unlucky to pretend that these characteristics can never be expressed.

We absolutely not pretending that this can never be expressed. In
fact, it's being expressed every day. We have our neo-nazi political
parties too. It's just that we here have learned our lesson, and very
few people actually listen to them.

>Let's turn to the Western Hemisphere: El Salvador.  During much of
the
>1980s, the U.S. government supported groups of people in El Salvador
>who were sending out death squads to murder their suspected
opponents.
>The U.S. certainly acquiesced in this activity - of this there is no
>doubt.  But, it is not unlikely the U.S. was more directly involved.
>(Only fifteen years earlier the U.S. was doing the same thing in
>Vietnam.)
>
>What would have happened if the citizens of El Salvador were
>adequately armed?  One thing you wouldn't see is a death squad going
>into a neighborhood to kick down some innocent's door and murder him
>or his family.  At least, you wouldn't see it twice.

Sure you would. It just would be that more bloody. The fact that
someone is armed has never stopped anyone from attacking. You just
make sure that your shot is the first and hits.

>Likewise, when the communist guerrillas were forcing (maybe) the
>peasantry to support them, the peasants would have no need to
>cooperate unwillingly if they were well armed.
>
>People who are well armed are less likely to become pawns, victims,
or
>slaves.  That is desirable.

They are just more likely to become dead.

>Incidentally, the consistent support the U.S. government has shown
for
>murderous or even genocidal governments is of great concern to those
>of us who live in the U.S.  It is unlikely that these tactics won't
be
>used here were there a serious political struggle and a disarmed
>population.

- From over here it appears that the majority of Americans doesn't
really give a shit. Correct me if I'm wrong.

>An issue that might possibly blossom into such a political struggle
is
>mass surveillance.  While the mass media is, for the most part,
giving
>everything the government's spin, and while large numbers of
>Congressmen and other denizens of Washington, D.C. think it's a good
>idea, the bulk of the population is not happy about this at all. 
They
>can read the writing on the wall.  The potential for conflict between
>the political class, which has a long history of murder and even
>assassination, and the American people exists right now.

Yes, things are a bit of a shambles at the other side of the pond.
Maybe for you it's a good thing to be armed to the teeth. For us over
here, arming the population would only serve to fill the morgues.

Alex

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNDNpTNuYAh4dUSo/EQK3bwCeKJv4AW0kOwjSRitLi7HDa7KEaW8AoN4F
OwK1wOG19pazc93T1twP1Evp
=FsmU
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Title: The True Story of the Internet Part II









The True Story of the InterNet

Part III


InfoWar

Final Frontier of the Digital Revolution

Behind the ElectroMagnetic
Curtain


by TruthMonger <tm@dev.null>




Copyright 1997 Pearl Publishing



InfoWar Table of Contents

Anarchist Post of the Century 

Alex Le Clue


Anarchist Post of the Century


Subject: Mr. Policeman is Your Friend
From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net

>Electronic Frontier Canada's David Jones (djones@insight.dcss.McMaster.CA)

>posted the following to the EFC mailing list:

>2. If cops can read E-mail, so can the bad guys
>      http://www.efc.ca/pages/media/gazette.24sep97.html

Let's not forget that cops are often the bad guys.

And I don't mean this in a macho, off-the-pigs way. I mean that
throughout
history the "cops" are those who have enforced the laws
and whims of
tyrants, who have arrested and tortured and executed dissidents
and
nonconformists of all flavors, and who were the "King's men"
in the times
of the Founders.

Even in more recent decades in the U.S., don't forget it was "cops"
who
harassed civil rights workers, who broke up perfectly legal strikes,
who
arrested and imprisoned Eugene Debs for speaking out against the
draft in
particular and a foolish war, WW 1, in general, and so on. One
need only
look to J. Edgar Hoover and his police state measures.

(In fact, the very term "police state" tells us all
we need to know about
whether or not "Mr. Policeman is Your Friend" is always,
or even most of
the time, true.)

And with full awareness that I am invoking Godwin's Law, the "cops"
in
Europe in the 1933-45 period were the enforcers of Hitler's policies.

Here's a list of some folks throughout history and in various
regimes who
would likely have reason not to want to escrow their keys with
the local
police:

Jews, Catholics, Protestants, atheists, heretics, schismatics,
 heathens,
poets, authors, Scharansky, Solzhenitsyn, refuseniks, Chinese
dissidents,
students in front of tanks, Branch Davidians, Scientologists,
Jesus,
Gandhi, Nelson Mandela, African National Congress, UNITA, Thomas
Jefferson,
Patrick Henry, colonial rebels, patriots, Tories, Basque separatists,

Algerian separatists, secessionists, abolitionists, John Brown,
draft
opponents, communists, capitalists, imperialist lackeys, anarchists,

Charlie Chaplin, Galileo, Joan of Arc,, Martin Luther,  Martin
Luther King,
Malcolm X, Stokely Carmichael, civil rights workers, Margaret
Sanger, birth
control activists, abortionists, anti-abortionists, Michael Miliken,
Robert
Vesco, Marc Rich, Nixon's Enemies, Hoover's enemies, Clinton's
enemies,
Republicans, Democrats, anarchists, labor organizers, pornographers,

readers of "Playboy," viewers of images of women whose
faces are uncovered,
Amateur Action, Jock Sturges, violators of the CDA, alt.fan.karla-homulka

readers,  Internet Casino customers, Scientologists, Rosicrucians,

royalists, Jacobeans, Hemlock Society activists, Jimmy Hoffa,
John L. Lewis,
Cesar Chavez, opponents of United Fruit, land reformers, Simon
Bolivar,
Robin Hood, Dennis Banks, American Indian Movement, Jack Anderson,
Daniel
Ellesberg, peace activists, Father Berrigan, Mormons, Joseph Smith,

missionaries, Greenpeace, Animal Liberation Front, gypsies, diplomats,
UN
ambassadors, Randy Weaver, David Koresh, Ayatollah Khomeini, John
Gotti,
Papists, Ulstermen, IRA, Shining Path, militia members, tax protesters,

Hindus, Sikhs, Lech Walesa, Polish labor movement, freedom fighters,

revolutionaries, Ben Franklin, Thomas Paine, and "suspects"

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography

---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----

Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital
money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms,
zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information
markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.

"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information
superhighway."





Alex Le Clue


Axle Le Clue shook his head in disbelief, as he read the CypherPunks
list post that had been sent by his clueless Doppelganger, Alex
Le Heux.

Subject: Re: "Show me an example of terrorists using
the Internet or crypto"
From: alexlh@xs4all.nl (Alex Le Heux)
To: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net

Bullshit. People in the US rarely use their weapons against oppressive

governments or political turbulence. Most guns that are used against

another person there are used to commit crime or to defend against

those armed criminals.

Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org> wrote:
>Let's also take a look at the Dutch performance during their

>occupation.  While there certainly were many courageous Dutch
people
>who helped refugees (at great personal risk, to say the least),
and
>there were many courageous Dutch people who were in the resistance,

>there were also many Dutch people who did not perform so well.
 Not
>only were a large number of Jewish people turned in by Dutch

>informers, but there were even Dutch SS units.

You have a nerve. You, coming from a country where people are
still
regularly killed in the name of racism, tell me this?!

Alex

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNDNpTNuYAh4dUSo/EQK3bwCeKJv4AW0kOwjSRitLi7HDa7KEaW8AoN4F

OwK1wOG19pazc93T1twP1Evp
=FsmU
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Axle Le Clue had been following this thread, in which a large
number of CypherPunks had contributed their perspective, to little
effect, for the most part.
Alex Le H[clu]e[less]ux, despite a variety of sensible, well-reasoned
posts by a number of different American CypherPunks, seemed to
remain,  in his own mind, a world-class expert on a country in
which he did not reside.

What was especially sad, was that the poor, dumb fucker wasn't
even a spook.

Axle Le Clue decided that, since the rather civil posts by the
other list members were not helping his clueless twin from across
the sea to come half-way to his senses, that he would step into
his VerityMonger suit and bring the boy up to speed on what an
ignorant asshole he was making of himself.
It was the least he could do for an evil twin...

Subject: When you realize that you're too stupid to live,
you can borrow my gun.
From: Axellc@xsDRUGS4all.hi (Axle Le Clue)
To: cypherpunks@Algebra.COM

Alex,
  Did you know that all Europeans are exactly 5' 7" tall,
have light brown hair and limp slightly when they walk? I know
this because I watch TV and that makes me a goddamn fucking expert
on you low-life foreigners who aren't like us, over here.

  If you disagree with my view of your region of the world, then
why don't you get your head out of your fucking ass so that you
have an outside chance of expressing an opinion or viewpoint that
you didn't suck out of the cocks of the mass media when it comes
to our region of the world.

  I saw a news story on TV the other day about two senior citizens
who drew down on a would-be robber in a restaurant, or some such,
using their illegal guns, which they carried for their
own protection.
  Yep, I saw it in the news once.

  Today some kid slashed his mater's throat, and then went to
school and whacked out a couple of his classmates with a rifle.
I have seen this every half-fucking-hour since it happened, and
will no doubt be shown all of the messy details another few hundred
times before the mass media who seem to be in charge of spoon-feeding
people like yourself their world-view is done creating your reality
for you.

  You want nerve, pal? I've got the fucking nerve to suggest that
you petition your fucking government to take in a few million
US government created nigger crack-heads, so that your country
can teach our citizens how to treat them with love and respect.

  To tell the truth, I'd rather you took the white-bread junkies,
because my nigger drug addict acquaintances have treated me much
better than my honkey junkie pals.
  Correct me if I'm wrong (but I never am), but it seems to me
that Europe is not even interested in saving our Black-African
Americans from the horrible abuse they suffer as a result of our
country's racism. Come and get 'em...see if they'll go.

  The US has racial problems because we have different races.
We also have a whole shitload of racial harmony.
  All over the world, there are a variety of countries engaged
in mass murder and genocide, at any given point in time. You try
coming to the US and slaughtering even a few thousand of any particular
race, religion, or ethnic group, and you won't even be able to
take a wild guess at the number of people of various races, religions
and ethnic groups that will be on your ass like shit on stink.

  You hypocritical piece of shit--having the fucking audacity
to conceitedly brag about how the people of Europe have "put
the crap of WWII behind us" and suggest that it is something
that we "haven't managed to do."

  Want the cold, hard facts of life, Bubba?

  You didn't put WWII 'behind' you. We did!

  Gun-loving Americans conquered your continent and gave you your
countries back instead of enslaving you, like every other winner
in history has done.

  Some of us discriminate against Jews. Do you know why? 

Because we HAVE some!

  We were giving them refuge while Europe was massacring them
by the millions. Now you have the balls to say we're not all treating
them right all of the time.
  Buy a fucking clue!

NEWS FLASH!!!
  Fascism hadn't died, it has just gone underground and crept
into every facet of life through the corporate and government
power mongers.
  The government and the mass media are working the citizens like
dumb fish on a hook, who are still trying to swallow the worm.
There is a New World Order on the way, and it isn't going to be
any prettier than the last time it was tried.

  You can dismiss as paranoid ranters and ravers, those who decry
the increasing loss of our freedom and privacy, but you would
be better served to listen and learn from them, rather than criticize
their determination to defend their liberty, to the death, if
necessary.
  Why? Because these are the same people who defended Europe's
liberty, to the death.

  The danger is not the freedom lovers who are armed and declaring
the line they will not let others step over, in compromising their
rights and freedoms.
  The danger is the sheeple who believe the government and their
media shills when they say that the Thought Police only want Austria.
The Privacy Police only want the Jews.
  The danger is the sheeple who buy the government lie that they
need to deny us our rights and freedoms to solve the problems
that they, themselves, have created.

  If you can't see this clearly, then there is nothing that I
or any of the other CypherPunks can say to change your perception
of the source of creeping fascism that is leading to yet another
attempt to create a New World Order.

  I love the American people. I despise the secret American government.
I feel the same about many other countries I have lived in or
visited.
  I do not want to see your children, or mine, fighting in the
future over what color to paint their prison cells, instead of
fighting to escape, and be free. When the cattle cars stop at
the end of the line, the people you find there are not nearly
as civil and reasonable as the ones who checked your identity
cards at the beginning of the trip, to make sure that you were
properly processed according to your rights under the law.

  I think you are an idiot to believe that the threat of weapons
in the hands of the citizens is a greater threat than weapons
only in the hands of the rich and powerful. However, if Europe
is conquered by the forces of evil, once again, I am sure that
myself and many other Americans will do what we can to come pull
your ass out of the fire.
  It may take a little longer, this time, though, since we may
have to kick our own fascist government's ass before we come kick
the shit out of your dictators.

  No need to thank us...it's just the way Americans are.

VerityMonger
"If you want to conquer the world, you're going to have to
come through me."
("Do you feel lucky, Hitler? Well...do you?)


Copyright "Anonymous TruthMonger <theSameGuy@theSamePlace.Old>"

"You can't get there from here."



"The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre"

"WebWorld & the Mythical Circle of Eunuchs"

"InfoWar (Part III of 'The True Story of the InterNet')

Soviet Union Sickle of Eunuchs Secret WebSite