NODE 03513692Re: poverty traps (Re: Sa
harka@nycmetro.comSun, 26 Oct 1997 04:14:34 +0800
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> Harka <harka@nycmetro.com> wrote:
> That may indeed work for some people, but the argument of
> "self-discipline and sacrifice" usually goes overboard once
> people _other than yourself_ are severely affected by that.
> "Sorry hun, you can't have a new winter-coat. Mommy has to save
> enough money so that she can choose the people she works for.
> And no...no christmas this year either".
-=> Quoting In:aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk to Harka <=-
In> That is indeed a sad financial state to be in. I have trouble
In> believing it though.
[examples of well-fares deleted]
In> So if any kids are being deprived of winter clothes or
In> whatever, it's not because their parents don't have enough
In> money, it's because their parents are stupid, or selfish.
Although my statement was deliberately somewhat exaggerated, it is
not that far from reality for quite a few people I know.
A real-life example:
A single (divorced) mother, 4 kids (3-12 years), working full-time
and making in theory $42 000/year. After taxes that comes down to
$2000 cash per month.
In order for her to be able to work her two youngest kids go to a
day-care-center. Wham! $1000 per month (hiring a baby-sitter would
amount to even more).
Her apartment costs $800/month excluding utilities. That leaves
$200 (+ $800 she gets in child-support) per month for _five_ people
to live on (clothes, food, utilities, school-books, gas for the
car, etc.etc.)
One thousand dollars per month for five people!! And that in New
York City!
She is not entitled to any support such as free school-meals for
the kids etc., because she "makes too much money" (_before_ taxes,
of course!)
What efforts has she made to make "herself more marketable"? She has
been working ever since the age of 16, went 8 years to College (paid
by herself and paying rent at the same time) and now has a Masters
Degree in teaching.
What has it brought her? Bill-collectors calling every day!
She made a calculation and (confirming your statement) came to the
conclusion, that she indeed would have _more_ money by not working
at all and simply going on welfare.
However, that is not a choice she wants to make.
Is she to be called "stupid" and "selfish" because she's poor
despite her efforts???
I don't think so. She, btw., is not the only person I know
struggeling in this manner from one month into the next, barely
being able to even catch up on bills.
Neither does she have a free choice of employers. There is only one
board of education in the City. Changing for a private school would
come with (at least a temporary) pay-cut, that she obviously can't
afford.
Therefore:
Since she isn't the only person I can think of, who is in such a
position, the argument formerly known as "If 'ya don't like the
company-policy [employing GAK/CAK] just leave and work for
somebody else" may now be called: "Ad Acta".
Ciao
Harka
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If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...
NODE 4570c34cRe: poverty traps (Re: Sa
Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>Sun, 26 Oct 1997 10:48:11 +0800
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At 04:09 PM 10/25/97 EDT, harka@nycmetro.com wrote:
>A real-life example:
>
>A single (divorced) mother, 4 kids (3-12 years), working full-time
>and making in theory $42 000/year. After taxes that comes down to
>$2000 cash per month.
>
>In order for her to be able to work her two youngest kids go to a
>day-care-center. Wham! $1000 per month (hiring a baby-sitter would
>amount to even more).
>Her apartment costs $800/month excluding utilities. That leaves
>$200 (+ $800 she gets in child-support) per month for _five_ people
>to live on (clothes, food, utilities, school-books, gas for the
>car, etc.etc.)
>
>One thousand dollars per month for five people!! And that in New
>York City!
>She is not entitled to any support such as free school-meals for
>the kids etc., because she "makes too much money" (_before_ taxes,
>of course!)
>
>What efforts has she made to make "herself more marketable"? She has
>been working ever since the age of 16, went 8 years to College (paid
>by herself and paying rent at the same time) and now has a Masters
>Degree in teaching.
>
>What has it brought her? Bill-collectors calling every day!
>
>She made a calculation and (confirming your statement) came to the
>conclusion, that she indeed would have _more_ money by not working
>at all and simply going on welfare.
>
>However, that is not a choice she wants to make.
>
>Is she to be called "stupid" and "selfish" because she's poor
>despite her efforts???
>
>I don't think so. She, btw., is not the only person I know
>struggeling in this manner from one month into the next, barely
>being able to even catch up on bills.
>
>Neither does she have a free choice of employers. There is only one
>board of education in the City. Changing for a private school would
>come with (at least a temporary) pay-cut, that she obviously can't
>afford.
This whole sob story makes me want to puke. First of all, there are
thousands of cities in the US with a higher wage-to-cost-of-living ratio
that socialist cesspool New York City. Anyone stupid enough to volunteer
to live in a city with one of the most confiscatory tax policies in the
country deserves what they get.
I currently live in a 900 square foot, 2-bedroom condo in Vacaville,
California, in a not-so-nice part of town. I have to keep paint on hand to
cover the gang graffiti that grows in my carport, in 2 years I have
personally witnessed 2 gang assaults, (one of which resulted in an
individual being medevac'd to a local hospital) and I have good reason to
believe that there are some drug dealers moving into my neighborhood. I am
currently paying a $67,000 mortgage for the privilege of living here. For
the same money, I could purchase a 40 acre woodlot with a stream running
through it, and a 4 bedroom house, near Clare, Michigan. Why do I stay
here? Mainly so I can be near my wife and son, but I also have a job that
I really like, even though it doesn't pay much. Does my financial
situation suck? You bet! My finances are in worse shape than those of the
woman described above. Do I expect (or deserve) the pity of others?
Absolutely not! Do I need some kind of government handout to save me from
my pathetic life? Absolutely not!
I am where I am at because of choices I have made, and I can make choices
that will change my situation for the better. This is the beauty of
America. If you are willing to do what it takes (although most people
aren't) you can improve ypur lot in life.
Jonathan Wienke
What part of "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be
infringed" is too hard to understand? (From 2nd Amendment, U.S. Constitution)
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NODE 43bcd41bRe: poverty traps (Re: Sa
"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>Sun, 26 Oct 1997 23:15:35 +0800
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In <199710252037.PAA30248@einstein.ssz.com>, on 10/25/97
at 04:09 PM, harka@nycmetro.com said:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Harka <harka@nycmetro.com> wrote:
> > That may indeed work for some people, but the argument of
> > "self-discipline and sacrifice" usually goes overboard once
> > people _other than yourself_ are severely affected by that.
> > "Sorry hun, you can't have a new winter-coat. Mommy has to save
> > enough money so that she can choose the people she works for.
> > And no...no christmas this year either".
> -=> Quoting In:aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk to Harka <=-
> In> That is indeed a sad financial state to be in. I have trouble
> In> believing it though.
>[examples of well-fares deleted]
> In> So if any kids are being deprived of winter clothes or
> In> whatever, it's not because their parents don't have enough
> In> money, it's because their parents are stupid, or selfish.
>Although my statement was deliberately somewhat exaggerated, it is not
>that far from reality for quite a few people I know.
>A real-life example:
>A single (divorced) mother, 4 kids (3-12 years), working full-time and
>making in theory $42 000/year. After taxes that comes down to $2000 cash
>per month.
CLUE #1: The reason she is divorced with 4 kids is because she made the
CHOICES in life that put her there!
>In order for her to be able to work her two youngest kids go to a
>day-care-center. Wham! $1000 per month (hiring a baby-sitter would amount
>to even more).
>Her apartment costs $800/month excluding utilities. That leaves $200 (+
>$800 she gets in child-support) per month for _five_ people to live on
>(clothes, food, utilities, school-books, gas for the car, etc.etc.)
>One thousand dollars per month for five people!! And that in New York
>City!
CLUE #2: If she can't afford to live in New York City then MOVE!!
>She is not entitled to any support such as free school-meals for the kids
>etc., because she "makes too much money" (_before_ taxes, of course!)
CLUE #3: She is not "entitled" to anything regardless of what she makes.
>What efforts has she made to make "herself more marketable"? She has been
>working ever since the age of 16, went 8 years to College (paid by
>herself and paying rent at the same time) and now has a Masters Degree in
>teaching.
CLUE #4: She made a bad choice of getting a Masters Degree in teaching.
She just as well could have spent the 8 yrs becoming a lawer. She made the
CHOICE to become a teacher, that's here problem not ours.
>What has it brought her? Bill-collectors calling every day!
CLUE #5: She is living above her means. Move to a cheaper apartment, get a
better paying job in Industry, spend less on "luxury items", ...ect
>She made a calculation and (confirming your statement) came to the
>conclusion, that she indeed would have _more_ money by not working at all
>and simply going on welfare.
>However, that is not a choice she wants to make.
>Is she to be called "stupid" and "selfish" because she's poor despite her
>efforts???
CLUE #6: She has made CHOICES in her life that has brought her to where
she is today. Now she needs to make another choice of wether she want's to
stay there or improve he lot in life. It is up to her to do so, not her
boss, not the school she works for, and not the government.
>I don't think so. She, btw., is not the only person I know
>struggeling in this manner from one month into the next, barely being
>able to even catch up on bills.
And if you bother to look at how and why they are there you would see that
it is of their own making.
>Neither does she have a free choice of employers. There is only one board
>of education in the City. Changing for a private school would come with
>(at least a temporary) pay-cut, that she obviously can't afford.
Of course she has free choice of employers. She just has to be willing to
make them.
>Therefore:
>Since she isn't the only person I can think of, who is in such a
>position, the argument formerly known as "If 'ya don't like the
>company-policy [employing GAK/CAK] just leave and work for somebody else"
>may now be called: "Ad Acta".
Therefore:
This is yet another case of one being unwilling of taking the
RESPONSIBILITY for their actions. She put herself there and she is the
only one who can get herself out.
- --
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
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