Re: Killing those who need killing (fwd)

An entity claiming to be wendigo wrote:
>From wendigo Thu Oct 30 01:56:09 1997
Subject: Re: Killing those who need killing
To: tcmay@got.net
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 01:56:09 -0500 (EST)
In-Reply-To: <v03102800b07d83cd05bd@[207.167.93.63]> from "Tim May" at Oct 29, 97 05:25:33 pm
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An entity claiming to be Tim May wrote:

: 
: (Personally, were I to be arrested and held on such false charges, I'd
: consider it necessary to kill those who illegally held me. Preferably from
: a safe distance, with a sniper rifle. But then I'm a right wing libertarian
: whacko.)

Right wing, left wing, friggin' wingless ... the above comment still 
indicates a sociopath.

Mark

- -- 
[] Mark Rogaski                   "That which does not kill me
[] wendigo@pobox.com                 only makes me stranger."

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-- 
[] Mark Rogaski                   "That which does not kill me
[] wendigo@pobox.com                 only makes me stranger."

>An entity claiming to be wendigo wrote:
>:An entity claiming to be Tim May wrote:
>
>:
>: (Personally, were I to be arrested and held on such false charges, I'd
>: consider it necessary to kill those who illegally held me. Preferably from
>: a safe distance, with a sniper rifle. But then I'm a right wing libertarian
>: whacko.)
>
>Right wing, left wing, friggin' wingless ... the above comment still
>indicates a sociopath.

Perhaps, but is being a sociopath that bad?  When those who administer the
justice system in society are out-of-control, or have consciously decided
to ignore the constitutional protections they are charged with upholding
then strong, extra-legal, measures may be called for in order to right the
apple cart.

"Those who prefer security over liberty deserve neither."

--Steve

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An entity claiming to be Steve Schear wrote:
: >:
: >: (Personally, were I to be arrested and held on such false charges, I'd
: >: consider it necessary to kill those who illegally held me. Preferably from
: >: a safe distance, with a sniper rifle. But then I'm a right wing libertarian
: >: whacko.)
: >
: >Right wing, left wing, friggin' wingless ... the above comment still
: >indicates a sociopath.
: 
: Perhaps, but is being a sociopath that bad?  When those who administer the
: justice system in society are out-of-control, or have consciously decided
: to ignore the constitutional protections they are charged with upholding
: then strong, extra-legal, measures may be called for in order to right the
: apple cart.

While being an eloquent statement of support for gang warfare, it still 
disagrees with the old adage of "two wrongs don't make a right" [1].  It does
indicate that this concept of justice causes any traces of "law" to go right
down the drain anytime one person oversteps the boundary.  If Tim were 
justified in breaking the law because a (hypothetical) LEO broke his end of
the Constitutional bargain, wouldn't that make the "law" in question moot?

I'm not attacking your ideals, or Tim's, I'm just wondering if this sort
of reactionary violence is valid.  If Tim were arrested on some bogus charge
[2] and were held as a political prisoner, let's say he does as he says he 
would ... leaving a corpse in jackboots.  Wouldn't that add more fuel to the
fires of the political reptiles, resulting in more oppresive law enforcement?

I'm not saying that he should just turn the other cheek, I'm just wondering if
there aren't more effective ways of dealing with an out of control government.
The American public won't be roused to open revolution quite so easily.  They
have jobs, cars, houses, kids, dogs, digital watches [3] and lots of other
things that they do not want to lose.  Revolution is untidy, and Americans
know this, so does the government ... this gives them a BIG advantage, it
makes the citizenry very compliant.

How do you see Tim's stance as being practical?

: 
: "Those who prefer security over liberty deserve neither."

I agree.


[1] but three rights make a left.

[2] plenty to pick from here.

[3] well, most of them do.

- -- 
[] Mark Rogaski                   "That which does not kill me
[] wendigo@pobox.com                 only makes me stranger."

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At 07:32 PM 10/30/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>I'm saying that vengeance for wrongs done and unrighted by the courts means
>the people are justified in acting against those who did them wrong.

Check out Tom Clancy's book "Without Remorse" for an excellent, although
fictional, example.

Jonathan Wienke

PGP Key Fingerprints:
7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams

"Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential."
-- Jonathan Wienke

RSA export-o-matic:
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)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`

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At 7:42 PM -0700 10/30/97, Mark Rogaski wrote:

>While being an eloquent statement of support for gang warfare, it still
>disagrees with the old adage of "two wrongs don't make a right" [1].  It does

The essence of this country's founding, and of specific statements by
Jefferson (tree of liberty watered with blood of patriots and tyrants),
Franklin (those who seek security over liberty deserve neither), and many
others, is that the people will seek vengeance in extra-legal ways if the
law enforcers become corrupt. Thus we see the Militia Movement, the Posse
Commitatus groups of years past, Assassination Politics, fragging of
corrupt and incompetent commanders, and direct action taken against the
Feds in their headquarters.

Sounds predictable to me.

>indicate that this concept of justice causes any traces of "law" to go right
>down the drain anytime one person oversteps the boundary.  If Tim were
>justified in breaking the law because a (hypothetical) LEO broke his end of
>the Constitutional bargain, wouldn't that make the "law" in question moot?

I'm saying that vengeance for wrongs done and unrighted by the courts means
the people are justified in acting against those who did them wrong.


>I'm not attacking your ideals, or Tim's, I'm just wondering if this sort
>of reactionary violence is valid.  If Tim were arrested on some bogus charge
>[2] and were held as a political prisoner, let's say he does as he says he
>would ... leaving a corpse in jackboots.  Wouldn't that add more fuel to the
>fires of the political reptiles, resulting in more oppresive law enforcement?

Yes, but bringing on the End Times is perhaps needed. Sometimes things have
to get worse to get better.

>I'm not saying that he should just turn the other cheek, I'm just wondering if
>there aren't more effective ways of dealing with an out of control government.
>The American public won't be roused to open revolution quite so easily.  They
>have jobs, cars, houses, kids, dogs, digital watches [3] and lots of other
>things that they do not want to lose.  Revolution is untidy, and Americans
>know this, so does the government ... this gives them a BIG advantage, it
>makes the citizenry very compliant.
>
>How do you see Tim's stance as being practical?

I don't claim the herd, the sheeple, will join in this revolution. I'm
saying that if I were to be imprisoned for months because I had squashed
vitamins in my pocket, which some gung-ho cops and DAs thought were drugs,
that I would then seek to kill all of those who falsely imprisoned me.

Sounds fair to me. So long as they understand that they can't use toilet
plungers on innocents, imprison people falsely, etc., they've got nothing
to fear.

But they have plainly lost sight of their responsibilities. Maybe their
death has been earned.

Might send a valuable lesson to the others.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

>An entity claiming to be Steve Schear wrote:
>: >: Tim May wrote:
>: >:
>: >: (Personally, were I to be arrested and held on such false charges, I'd
>: >: consider it necessary to kill those who illegally held me. Preferably
>from
>: >: a safe distance, with a sniper rifle. But then I'm a right wing
>libertarian
>: >: whacko.)
>: >
>: >Right wing, left wing, friggin' wingless ... the above comment still
>: >indicates a sociopath.
>:
>: Perhaps, but is being a sociopath that bad?  When those who administer the
>: justice system in society are out-of-control, or have consciously decided
>: to ignore the constitutional protections they are charged with upholding
>: then strong, extra-legal, measures may be called for in order to right the
>: apple cart.
>
>While being an eloquent statement of support for gang warfare, it still
>disagrees with the old adage of "two wrongs don't make a right" [1].  It does
>indicate that this concept of justice causes any traces of "law" to go right
>down the drain anytime one person oversteps the boundary.  If Tim were
>justified in breaking the law because a (hypothetical) LEO broke his end of
>the Constitutional bargain, wouldn't that make the "law" in question moot?

Yes, such direct measures by a wronged individual can set the stage for
further lawlessness and should only be undertaken after all reasonable
legal measures within the system have been exhausted.  Justice is, in my
opinion, more important than the survivial of the system, when that system
no longer can deliver justice.  If LEOs feel they can overstep their legal
restraints with impunity, because their superiors won't know or care, or
the courts are very unlikely to punish, then the laws have already become
moot.

>
>I'm not attacking your ideals, or Tim's, I'm just wondering if this sort
>of reactionary violence is valid.  If Tim were arrested on some bogus charge
>[2] and were held as a political prisoner, let's say he does as he says he
>would ... leaving a corpse in jackboots.  Wouldn't that add more fuel to the
>fires of the political reptiles, resulting in more oppresive law enforcement?

Yes, and this is exactly what is happening with the dramatic militarization
of enforcement units in unlikely government organizations.

>
>I'm not saying that he should just turn the other cheek, I'm just wondering if
>there aren't more effective ways of dealing with an out of control government.
>The American public won't be roused to open revolution quite so easily.  They
>have jobs, cars, houses, kids, dogs, digital watches [3] and lots of other
>things that they do not want to lose.  Revolution is untidy, and Americans
>know this, so does the government ... this gives them a BIG advantage, it
>makes the citizenry very compliant.

At the time of the American Revolution a similar situation existed.  The
crown set the stage with standing colonial armies paid for by colonial
citizens against their wishes, forced billeting of soldiers in residential
homes, harsh and unjust laws and extridition of accused to England for
trials by non-peers, etc.  It has been widely estimated that only 10-15% of
the colonists participated in the Revolution, most being either loyalists
or too afraid to get involved. Of course, we're a long way from this.

>
>How do you see Tim's stance as being practical?

For those who seek the overthrow of order imposed by who they accuse of
ignoring constitutional guarantees, nothing could be better than to manuver
them into ever more blatant and publicized abuses of civil rights.  So long
as instigators carefully chose the battle ground and keep collateral damage
to a minimum, common citizens (with no particular radical bent) will see
through the spin doctors, revealing the true stripes of those with naked
power ambitions and see themselves as possible next targets for abuse.  It
only takes 10-15%.

Personally, I doubt any actions short of those which sucessfully challenge
the ability of the Feds to protect citizens from lawlessness will cause
significant numbers of citizens to reconsider their allegence.

The problems we are facing were largely explored by Alexis de Toqueville in
the first quarter of the 19th century.  He predicted that "tyranny of the
majority",the darker side of democracy, was a possible result of the
American experiment.  Jefferson's solution, frequent revolutions, has
unfortuately been shunned.

--Steve

Mark Rogaski <wendigo@ne-wendigo.jabberwock.org> writes:

> An entity claiming to be Tim May wrote:

> : 
> : (Personally, were I to be arrested and held on such false charges, I'd
> : consider it necessary to kill those who illegally held me. Preferably from
> : a safe distance, with a sniper rifle. But then I'm a right wing libertarian
> : whacko.)

> Right wing, left wing, friggin' wingless ... the above comment still 
> indicates a sociopath.

I agree.  One of you two is a sociopath.  Methinks you're pointing the
finger at the wrong person.

Reexamine your assumptions.  When you reach a conclusion as grievously 
in error as the one above, one (or more) of them must surely be wrong.

FingerPointingMonger

> An entity claiming to be Tim May wrote:
> : (Personally, were I to be arrested and held on such false charges, I'd
> : consider it necessary to kill those who illegally held me. Preferably from
> : a safe distance, with a sniper rifle. But then I'm a right wing libertarian
> : whacko.)
> Right wing, left wing, friggin' wingless ... the above comment still 
> indicates a sociopath.

	And the problem with that is...


	You must live in such a nice world, where the sky is always blue,
the grass always green, and the police eager and willing to serve a happy
populace. 

	Can I come live in your world?

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An entity claiming to be snow wrote:
: 
: > Right wing, left wing, friggin' wingless ... the above comment still 
: > indicates a sociopath.
: 
: 	And the problem with that is...
: 
: 
: 	You must live in such a nice world, where the sky is always blue,
: the grass always green, and the police eager and willing to serve a happy
: populace. 
: 
: 	Can I come live in your world?
: 

Get a grip.  My world is just has the same ugly grey patina of reality
as yours.  I should have qualified my comment a bit more.  Ranting
about sniper rifles in a public forum is only going to set you up for a 
losing battle. I actually agree with Tim about the justification for extreme
measures, I just don't necessarily think that setting yourself up as a target
for some gung-ho BATF agents is a good way to see justice served.

"Eagles may soar, but weasels never get sucked into jet engines"

				-- Anonymous

Mark

- -- 
[] Mark Rogaski                   "That which does not kill me
[] wendigo@pobox.com                 only makes me stranger."

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