Re: Internet Via Electric Lines?

> To:            cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
> From:          Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
> I heard on the ABC hourly news that some genius had figured out a way
> to use electrical power lines for data transmission, so that the power
> grid could be integrated into the Internet.  Does anyone have any
> details / pointers?

> Jonathan Wienke

I've heard of two methods; one is to transmit the data as a high
frequency FM signal along the wire. The other is to use power lines
which include an optical fibre. 

Both have problems. 

The FM signal has difficulty going through transformers (there are 
lots of transformers, with the final step-down usually occuring at 
a pole-top near your house). Also, you have to be very careful about
isolating the data output from the power line: an error could send
110VAC into your serial board. I haven't heard of this method being
used on a wide scale, but it might work as a LAN.

The optical method may actually be implemented. Putting a few optical
fibers into a power line is cheap, easy, and widely done. The
idea was originally that power companies could read your electrical meter 
remotely, but the bandwidth available is gross overkill. Thus they 
are also thinking of adding Cable TV, telephony, and data services.

There are still problems. You are basically building a data network 
on top of the power grid, and the topologies don't really match up.
Also, employees have to be trained to splice optical fibers and
install routing equipment, and millions of miles of power lines and
hundreds of millions of junctions need to be replaced or reworked.

There was a rosy article about this in Wired a few years ago. I have
heard nothing since.

Peter Trei
trei@process.com

At Interop, someone mentioned to me that Nortel has announced a system
for getting 192k over power lines.  Theres a link on their home page,
but its broken.

On another topic, someone asked me about a "new breakthrough in
quantum computing."  Anyone know of an announcement in the last week?

Adam


Peter Trei wrote:
| > To:            cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
| > From:          Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
| > I heard on the ABC hourly news that some genius had figured out a way
| > to use electrical power lines for data transmission, so that the power
| > grid could be integrated into the Internet.  Does anyone have any
| > details / pointers?


-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume

To answer Adam's question on quatum computing, see:
http://feynman.stanford.edu/qcomp/artlist.html

Interesting stuff.  Nothing to do with encryption (except maybe breaking it in
the future).

John E. Mayorga

Standard disclaimer





Adam Shostack wrote:

> At Interop, someone mentioned to me that Nortel has announced a system
> for getting 192k over power lines.  Theres a link on their home page,
> but its broken.
>
> On another topic, someone asked me about a "new breakthrough in
> quantum computing."  Anyone know of an announcement in the last week?
>
> Adam
>
> Peter Trei wrote:
> | > To:            cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
> | > From:          Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
> | > I heard on the ABC hourly news that some genius had figured out a way
> | > to use electrical power lines for data transmission, so that the power
> | > grid could be integrated into the Internet.  Does anyone have any
> | > details / pointers?
>
> --
> "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
>                                                        -Hume






begin:          vcard
fn:             John Mayorga
n:              Mayorga;John
org:            Netscape Communications Corp.
adr;dom:        ;;501 E. Middlefield Road, Mountain View, CA 94043, USA;9;;;
email;internet: jmayorga@netscape.com
tel;work:       4556
x-mozilla-cpt:  ;0
x-mozilla-html: FALSE
version:        2.1
end:            vcard

Some of the papers on this site don't paint a hopeful picture that quantum
computers will live up to some of its biggest boosters insofar as crypto
and factoring problems are concerned.  For example see:

http://feynman.stanford.edu/qcomp/plenio/plenio/plenio.html

Others seem down right gleeful:

http://feynman.stanford.edu/qcomp/bennett-nature95

They all seem to agree that practical quantum computers are still a long
way off.

--Steve

At 4:01 PM -0700 10/13/97, John Mayorga wrote:
>To answer Adam's question on quatum computing, see:
>http://feynman.stanford.edu/qcomp/artlist.html
>
>Interesting stuff.  Nothing to do with encryption (except maybe breaking it in
>the future).
>

Tuesday October 7 2:58 PM EDT

New Power-line Telephone Technology Set To Hit UK

LONDON - Electricity companies may become the latest providers of telephone
and Internet services to your home.

Forget separate lines from telephone or cable companies: you might talk and
send computer data at high speed via existing power cables -- the same lines
that supply electricity to your washing machine and fridge.

The electricity lines have been able to carry telephone signals and computer
data for some time but not in a commercially viable way because they were
too slow.

Britain's Norweb Communications, part of United Utilities, and Canada's
Northern Telecom, however, appear to have developed a new technology to
speed things up considerably.

"The technology has been successfully tested, is ready for the mass market,
has the potential to stimulate major growth in Internet use, and will change
the future for electricity utilities," the firms said in a statement.

They will announce details at a news conference on Wednesday, but media
reports here said the new technology allows computer data to be whizzed
around at more than 10 times the speed of current average Internet modems.

Copyright, Reuters Ltd. All rights reserved

On Wed, 8 Oct 1997, Peter Trei wrote:

> > To:            cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
> > From:          Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com>
> > I heard on the ABC hourly news that some genius had figured out a way
> > to use electrical power lines for data transmission, so that the power
> > grid could be integrated into the Internet.  Does anyone have any
> > details / pointers?
> 
> > Jonathan Wienke
> 
> I've heard of two methods; one is to transmit the data as a high
> frequency FM signal along the wire. The other is to use power lines
> which include an optical fibre. 
> 
> Both have problems. 
> 
> The FM signal has difficulty going through transformers (there are 
> lots of transformers, with the final step-down usually occuring at 
> a pole-top near your house). Also, you have to be very careful about
> isolating the data output from the power line: an error could send
> 110VAC into your serial board. I haven't heard of this method being
> used on a wide scale, but it might work as a LAN.
> 
> The optical method may actually be implemented. Putting a few optical
> fibers into a power line is cheap, easy, and widely done. The
> idea was originally that power companies could read your electrical meter 
> remotely, but the bandwidth available is gross overkill. Thus they 
> are also thinking of adding Cable TV, telephony, and data services.
> 
> There are still problems. You are basically building a data network 
> on top of the power grid, and the topologies don't really match up.
> Also, employees have to be trained to splice optical fibers and
> install routing equipment, and millions of miles of power lines and
> hundreds of millions of junctions need to be replaced or reworked.
> 
> There was a rosy article about this in Wired a few years ago. I have
> heard nothing since.
> 
> Peter Trei
> trei@process.com
>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

>> I heard on the ABC hourly news that some genius had figured out a 
way
>> to use electrical power lines for data transmission...

FM
>The FM signal has difficulty going through transformers (there are 
>lots of transformers, with the final step-down usually occuring at 
>a pole-top near your house).

This has been widely used as a (very) local area network - you can 
find a number of Hobby-style projects in electronics magazines dating 
years back.

The transformers, which are designed for 50/60Hz, should look like 
brick walls to any carrier frequency that can cope with a meaningful 
bandwidth. This probably explains why it is local. Additionally, I 
have heard that the power companies tend to get uppity about even the 
local variant - apparently it impacts their supply monitoring.
 

Optical
>[...] Putting a few optical
>fibers into a power line is cheap, easy, and widely done.

But much cheaper and easier is using the signalling gulleys that run 
along the side of the railways - no High Tension precautions, no 
scaling pylons. This, incidently is the reason that a number of 
telecomms consortia (in europe, at least) include a railway element - 
they provide the long-haul backbone.

[...]
>Also, employees have to be trained to splice optical fibers and
>install routing equipment, and millions of miles of power lines and
>hundreds of millions of junctions need to be replaced or reworked.

And that's the 'cheap & easy' mentioned above?



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNDuntfzOjjBJiFUeEQLX+wCfZu20gO0gc2SahIGPm0+QRKjIDV0AoIhk
81RJqpql8IIKwZXOapVCZthK
=8Una
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----