Re: Saving money

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 > At 10:00 PM -0700 10/24/97, harka@nycmetro.com wrote:

 > While I am glad for your achievements, you have not addressed my
 > point: all this doesn't apply to the larger mass of people.

 -=> Quoting In:tcmay@got.net to Harka <=-

 In> As I recall your point, it was that most people are a few weeks away
 In> from running out of money and hence cannot change jobs readily. I was
 In> saying that a small amount of self-discipline and sacrifice can quite
 In> easily translate into having a few _months'_ worth of savings.

That may indeed work for some people, but the argument of
"self-discipline and sacrifice" usually goes overboard once people
_other than yourself_ are severely affected by that. "Sorry hun,
you can't have a new winter-coat. Mommy has to save enough money so
that she can choose the people she works for. And no...no christmas
this year either".

 In> If they won't make these spending tradeoffs and have not even
 In> a buffer sufficient to carry them through a month or two or
 In> three, I say screw them.

How about you adopting a person/family of your choice instead and
providing them with enough startup-money, so that they can at least
make an realistic effort to work towards a position of becoming
financially independent themselves? :)

 In> I won't support restrictions on what a company may do, when
 In> perfectly legal,

Neither do I.

 In> just because Joe Sixpack spent his paycheck on beer

or on his two daughters...

 In> Or because Rawandala Brown spent her money on crack

or supporting her sick mother instead.
Your repeating of government-propaganda about the "abuse of the
welfare-system" etc. doesn't really cut it as an argument in a
discussion about the realism of having total financial independence
and the freedom of choices, that comes with it.

 In> The Mormons teach self-reliance, and savings. So do other
 In> religions and belief systems. Many of them urge their
 In> followers to have money put aside for just these kinds of
 In> situations.

While I am not a Mormon or whatever, I do believe in self-reliance
myself. But to argue, that everybody already _is_ self-reliant to
the degree of being able to freely choose your employer at any time
is factually incorrect. And that was the beginning of this
discussion.

[Grasshopper stuff deleted]

 In> Don't you mean, in your world view:

 In> If success is outlawed, only failures will succeed.

You don't have to start twisting my signature-file and implying
things, that were never written by anybody but your projections. :)

 In> (I urge you to think about how your criticisms of the free
 In> market fit this aphorism.)

I suggest in return you reconsidering the myth, that a free market
means equal opportunities and thus quick self-reliance for
everybody.

Ciao

Harka

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... Freedom is not a circumstance in life, it's a State of Mind!

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If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption...

Harka <harka@nycmetro.com> writes:
>  -=> Quoting In:tcmay@got.net to Harka <=-
> 
>  In> As I recall your point, it was that most people are a few weeks away
>  In> from running out of money and hence cannot change jobs readily. I was
>  In> saying that a small amount of self-discipline and sacrifice can quite
>  In> easily translate into having a few _months'_ worth of savings.
> 
> That may indeed work for some people, but the argument of
> "self-discipline and sacrifice" usually goes overboard once people
> _other than yourself_ are severely affected by that. "Sorry hun,
> you can't have a new winter-coat. Mommy has to save enough money so
> that she can choose the people she works for. And no...no christmas
> this year either".

That is indeed a sad financial state to be in.  I have trouble
believing it though.  Most of the people at low levels of income
around where I live (people collecting pretty reasonable social
security paychecks) spend lots of their money on such things as:

- drinking at pubs and bars (expensive hobby, alcohol is taxed at
  2000% or whatever, and the publican is making a hearty markup too)

- smoking (again expensive hobby, taxed at 2000% or whatever, likely
  to make you die young, but hey, that's their choice)

- have satellite dishes, cars, fancy consumer electronics collections

So if any kids are being deprived of winter clothes or whatever, it's
not because their parents don't have enough money, it's because their
parents are stupid, or selfish.  At least this is the overwhelming
case in a socialist welfare state like the UK.

If you go to a big city (soft-target-ville), you will see a few people
lying in doorways begging, sleeping on the streets; they're doing it
because they want to, or because they are mentally ill, or whatever.
There is no excuse with social handouts of L45 ($72) per week spending
money, plus rent paid.

>  In> If they won't make these spending tradeoffs and have not even
>  In> a buffer sufficient to carry them through a month or two or
>  In> three, I say screw them.
> 
> How about you adopting a person/family of your choice instead and
> providing them with enough startup-money, so that they can at least
> make an realistic effort to work towards a position of becoming
> financially independent themselves? :)

In the UK we have a "poverty trap".  That is the social security hand
outs are so generous that it would mean a large pay check cut for many
people to go and get a job.  For example, a qualified auto mechanic I
know: for a while he was on the dole: getting L110 spending money,
rent paid, plus fringe benefits (exemption from certain taxations).
He'd have had to be bringing in > L250/week ($400/week) or so to even
make it worth while working once you took into account lost benefits,
and cost of getting to work, and taxation of income etc.  Even then
he'd have been working for an additional hourly rate of about
0.50p/hr.  Yes he'd be self-sufficient, but working for effectively
0.50p/hr isn't much incentive.

>  In> just because Joe Sixpack spent his paycheck on beer
> 
> or on his two daughters...

More frequently on beer, I think you may find.

>  In> Or because Rawandala Brown spent her money on crack
> 
> or supporting her sick mother instead.

In the UK sick mothers get state pensions, sick pay.  Daughters who
have enough wits about them would even get paid by the state to look
after said sick mother.

> Your repeating of government-propaganda about the "abuse of the
> welfare-system" etc. doesn't really cut it as an argument in a
> discussion about the realism of having total financial independence
> and the freedom of choices, that comes with it.

You don't need total financial independence, all you need is a few
months buffer.


I don't really think that most capitalists are cold-hearted bastards,
charity is fine.  But the state is an ineffient mechanism for
providing social security.  And being forced to hand over `charity' at
the point of a gun isn't appreciated.

Adam
-- 
Now officially an EAR violation...
Have *you* exported RSA today? --> http://www.dcs.ex.ac.uk/~aba/rsa/

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