Why porn must be stopped at all costs, by Jodi Hoffman

[Wow. First time I've ever been personally accused of being "a major
reason for the downward spiral of society." --Declan]


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 11:53:27 -0500
From: Jodi Hoffman <jlhoffm@ibm.net>
To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
Subject: Why porn must be stopped at all costs.....

ALL:
I've forgotten how long I've been on this email list.  Maybe too long.

Try as I might, I cannot forget standing on the steps of the Supreme
Court building with my husband and 10 year old daughter in the freezing
drizzle.  I really thought we could make a difference, standing there
with our banner and signs, one of which read, "DON'T SACRIFICE MY CHILD
ON THE ALTAR OF THE FIRST AMENDMENT."  Stupid me.  As the saying
goes...we've come a long way, baby.

As I wander back through all the posts on this list, it finally dawns on
me what this is all about, this 'fight censorship' rhetoric.  It's
nothing more and nothing less than a lot of egotistical, self-serving
brats who absolutely refuse to grow up, including you, Declan.  Don't
you realize that YOU are a major reason for the downward spiral of
society?  Instead of trying to protect children, you want to empower
them.  Even a moron knows that when you do so, that power has to be
taken from someone.  Unfortunately, that someone is the parent.  I have
to ask myself just how many on this list have children.  Not many, I
would say.
Someone on this list, I forget who, has made numerous attempts at
convincing us that pornography 'does no harm' to children.  It is
exactly at this point that I must draw a line.  Studies have shown that
an event which lasts even so much as three-tenths of a second, within
five to ten minutes has produced a structural change in the brain.
Exposure to porn causes actual brain damage, especially in a child.

So, keep protecting your porn-induced orgasms.  That's exactly what
happened with the Hitler youth, etc...  After all, I'm sure it does help
to blur the lines of reality.
=====================
Please PRINT THIS OUT and save for later reference.  Rules number 1
through 7 have already been put into effect.  Rule number 8 is currently
being implemented.  Numbers 9 and 10 are already in the beginning
phases.   If you're not yet convinced that you are contributing to the
ruination of America, I would hope you will be by the time you finish
reading this.
Paul and Jodi Hoffman
Weston, Florida

"When an opponent declares, "I will not come over to your side", I
calmly say, "Your child belongs to us already..."  --Adolph Hitler,
speaking about the schools and their indoctrination of the Hilterjugend
(Hitler Youth Corps).
==================================================
LENIN'S BLUEPRINT FOR WORLD DOMINATION
These 'Rules' are meant to be a loose parody of the Ten Commandments,
and are particularly emphasized at the Lenin School of Political
Warfare.   They are practical rules that are being implemented all over
the world -- with special emphasis on the strongest foe of Communism,
the United States.
Study these Rules very carefully. And then reflect upon what is
happening in our society right now.   Perhaps this list will provide
answers to some of the questions that seemed --until now -- to have no
answers.
Lenin himself said that it didn't matter that three-fourths of the world
be destroyed, just so the remnant were good Communists.

RULE FOR REVOLUTION #1:     CORRUPT THE NATION'S YOUTH

THE RULE:
The future of any nation lies with its youth. So corrupt them; since
religion teaches moral virtue, erode the churches and divert the young
from religion. Make them interested only in themselves. Get them
involved in drugs, alcohol, and sex. Get them addicted to privileges and
rights.
THE REALITY:
Many of today's youth are grossly overprivileged, committed to fashion,
physically flabby and lazy, and mentally undisciplined. If they don't
want to do something, they simply will not do it. And if they want to do
something to indulge themselves, no law or moral standard will hold them
back.  They feel that they are entitled to the 'good things in life,'
not as a reward for hard work, but as an expected gift, to be received
without effort and even without asking.  And where do they learn such
slovenliness? Just spend two hours in front of a television watching a
random selection of situation comedies to find out. Unfortunately, kids
who fit the above description usually model themselves after their
parents.  Such parasitic habits would not be tolerated in the former
Soviet Union.
The prevailing attitude among today's pampered American youth is one of
nihilism ( I am nothing, life has no meaning, I don't care) -- and for
good reason.  Over 75 percent of America's high school boys now think
it's acceptable to rape a girl at any age.  Wonder why anymore?

RULE FOR REVOLUTION #2:     CONTROL THE MASS MEDIA

THE RULE:
Since the media shapes the minds of the people, infiltrate it and
control it.  Dominate television, radio, and the newspapers, and you
control the minds of the people.

THE REALITY:
It is quite obvious that traditional values are considered ridiculous to
all branches of the media.   Christians, clergy, and even Christ Himself
are held up as objects of scorn and mocking laughter by television,
motion pictures, radio, artists, and songwriters.  In the place of
decency and morality, a constant stream of Left-wing values is
presented.
Homosexuality, abortion, violence, and contempt for all parental and
governmental authority is the prevailing order of the day.   A
particularly powerful form of media is represented by the so-called
"arts community."   Some latter-day "artists" actually make a
pretty good living by mocking traditional values and Christianity.
Consider Andres Sorrano's "Piss Christ" (a photograph of a crucifix
submerged in urine) or Robert Mapplethorp's photos, which include one
showing a bullwhip protruding out of his rear end.

This media bias is not a fantasy of a few right-wing whiners; this is
cold, hard reality.
The extreme leftward tilt of the media has been documented by impartial
observers and study managers, and has even been acknowledged by the
press itself.

RULE FOR REVOLUTION #3:     ENCOURAGE PUBLIC INDIFFERENCE

THE RULE:
Cause the people to become disinterested in their own government and in
world affairs. Get them to feel disenfranchised. Get them to ridicule
and lose respect for government leaders.

THE REALITY:
Americans now vote at a lower rate than at any other time in our
history. Every American knows how disenfranchised and powerless the
average voter feels.  The media constantly trumpet instances of
hypocrisy and corruption in our government, despite the fact that we
have the most open and honest political system in the world.   The
United States Supreme Court has wrested much of the State's power from
them with judicial activism.   This means that the people's
representatives at the State level -- and therefore the people
themselves -- have much less of a voice in their own government.
On the state level, when people or local legislators finally manage to
pass a conservative law regarding abortion, pornography or
homosexuality, it is invariably challenged by Neo-liberal groups and
struck down by higher courts, leading voters to ask themselves
"Why bother participating in the process? We have no real voice in how
things are run anyway!"

RULE FOR REVOLUTION #4:     ENCOURAGE PUBLIC BICKERING

THE RULE:
Divide the people into hostile groups. Divide them against themselves by
getting them to squabble about inconsequential social issues.

THE REALITY:
Never before have so many trivial issues captured so much air time.
Major construction and other projects are halted due to sometimes
trivial environmental concerns.  Critical research which uses animals is
halted or impeded by animal-rights groups.  Sodomy rights, old- growth
timber, anti-fur, and dozens of other Neoliberal causes (and the
conservative backlash) cause more friction among our nation's people
than in any other nation in the world.

Meanwhile, the real issues of importance are either entirely neglected
or paid weak lip service:   Crime, poverty, hunger and, beneath all of
them, the moral disintegration of our country.   All of these have lead
to despair among those affected and encourage violent change at any
cost, with no thought given to the kind of change being fought for.
Naturally, when conservatives react to Neoliberal initiatives with
concrete action, they are painted as agents of "divisiveness" and
"disunity," further leading to the impression that American society is
composed entirely of squabbling special-interest groups.

RULE FOR REVOLUTION #5:      SEIZE POWER, THEN CENSOR

THE RULE:
Always preach true democracy, but seize power as completely and
ruthlessly as possible.  Vigorously censor viewpoints that conflict with
ours.

THE REALITY:
If the slightest complaint against pornography in our schools is raised
by concerned parents, People for the American Way (PAW), the ACLU, and
other left-wing groups instantly shout "censorship!"   But they say not
a word when it is pointed out that the Bible and all mention of morality
in textbooks have been ruthlessly hounded from the schools.

Religion has literally disappeared from our children's textbooks. The
media relentlessly suppress the reasoning behind conservative and
traditional viewpoints while reporting their version of the facts and
claiming "impartiality."

Artists' demand that the people pay for their atrocities. When the
people balk, the 'artists' whine about censorship. All traditional
groups and viewpoints are fair game for ridicule; yet when was the last
time you saw any 'artist' making fun of sodomites or women?

In other words, the censorship is all one-way. And the "pluralism"
valued so much by the Neoliberals is entirely unilateral (one way only).

Communist atrocities which have killed more than 150 million all over
the world are glossed over or ignored, but the most trivial
international action by the United States brings immediate and forceful
condemnation.

RULE FOR REVOLUTION #6:       BANKRUPT THE GOVERNMENT

THE RULE:
Encourage government extravagance on every front.
Get the government deeply into debt. Get the people dependent on
government by providing for their every need. This destroys their
independence, motivation and strength.

THE REALITY:
The United States is flat broke. It is the number one debtor nation on
earth, with a deficit of more than $5,000,000,000,000 (five trillion
dollars).   Social programs pay for everything from abortion and
homosexual-run "sensitivity training sessions" to comprehensive sex
education.

We are the most truly Socialistic society on earth, a nation
of people addicted to entitlements, unable to break away from the ample
government teat, people who scream at the top of our lungs if any
cutbacks in services are proposed.

And yet, the Neoliberals want to spend even more.

They want us to fund family benefits for sodomites, a comprehensive
health care plan that will inevitably turn into a Britain-like
socialized horror, and "art" that is blatantly obscene.

RULE FOR REVOLUTION #7:       DESTROY NATIONAL VALUES

THE RULE:
Cause a breakdown of indigenous national values.  Destroy all tradition
in preparation for the bright dawn of glorious Socialism.  Ridicule
religion, patriotism, and honesty. The people must be led to have only
one interest:   Themselves!

THE REALITY:
>From the public schools to the pulpits of Christian "churches," moralrelativism and situational ethics are the rule of the day. The 
highest
goods are compassion, nonjudgmentalism, and tolerance.
Any individual weakness is treated as a problem of society, not of the
person, and this relieves everyone of the responsibility of improving
themselves.

Why should there be any effort to take responsibility for one's own
faults when "society" is so conveniently ready to take the blame for all
one's sins? Society has made the sacrifice.   So criminals, addicts,
alcoholics, child molesters, wife beaters, and others can always blame
their problems on society.

We have truly become the "me generation."

RULE FOR REVOLUTION #8:       ATTACK GUN OWNERSHIP

THE RULE:
Control or register all firearms if possible. This will make their
confiscation much easier when the time comes for revolution.

THE REALITY:
When the Communist Revolution occurs in the United States, the last
thing the Red Armies want to face is ten million determined and
well-trained guerrillas (gun owners) taking potshots at them from around
every corner.

The Communists don't want the equivalent of ten Afghanistans in the
United States.

Although the objective of inhibiting gun ownership has not yet been
completely met, there are dozens of bills and initiatives being
submitted all over the country for compulsory gun registration,
permitting, and other controls.   The Second Amendment is
disregarded entirely as Neoliberals trumpet for all guns to be totally
banned.
After all, they say, thousands die from gun-related accidents and crimes
every year. They fail to see that criminals will always get guns, a
parallel to their own argument stating that, if abortion becomes
illegal, women will still get abortions.

RULES FOR REVOLUTION #9 AND #10:    UNDERMINE THE ARMED FORCES

THE RULES:
Destroy the reputation of the armed forces.
Cause the young men to perceive military duty as distasteful and
ridiculous. Fight registration of any kind, and encourage defections
within the ranks.
Cause the people to desire peace at any cost.   Cause them to oppose any
and all of their government's actions regarding the strengthening or use
of their armed forces.

THE REALITY:
Our country's armed forces consume a vast percentage of our gross
national product.
We possess the best and most advanced weapons systems in the world. But
our armed forces are a joke for two reasons:
(1) they are completely restrained in their actions by a hostile
Congress, and
(2) the armed forces have been saddled with such a bad reputation that
it is virtually impossible to fill the ranks with volunteers, even in
the new and streamlined armed services.

Where serving in the armed forces was once considered patriotic and
honorable (as it was in the former Soviet Union), it is now looked upon
as foolish and 'anti-progressive.'

Servicemen are ridiculed and denigrated at every turn. People say that,
if you can't make it on the outside, you wind up in the armed forces.

Every serviceman is considered to be a useless gobbler of tax money.

FINAL REALITY:  WELCOME TO AMERIKA, COMRADES.
================================================================
The 'Rules for Revolution' described here are the most important actions
that can be taken to weaken a country in order to prepare it for armed
attack or a skillful coup d'etat.  These rules are summaries that are
extracted from a number of books written by professional revolutionaries
from the former Soviet Union, from other Communist-dominated countries,
and from the United States itself.
They are most concisely summarized in the 2,225 page, three-volume set
Lenin: Selected Works , distributed in English by Progress Publishers,
21, Zubovsky Boulevard, Moscow.
These general principles, dedicated to one of the most famous
revolutionaries of all time, Vladimir Lenin, are studied by every
Communist political scientist, and by every ambassador or emissary of
any type who leaves the former Soviet Union.  They are also studied in
great detail by many Americans.

-- 
Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp    
Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
1304 SW 160th Avenue, Suite 122  Weston, Florida 33326
Phone: (954) 349-0366   Fax: (954) 349-0361

Having Tourette Syndrome can sometimes be a burden, particularly when
one goes through a long period where their obscene outbursts are serving
no particular purpose. So it is refreshing when I come across situations
where all of those huddled masses of naughty words, struggling to be
free, can be expressed in a meaningful manner, thus living a productive
life instead of being just wasted.

Declan McCullagh wrote:
> [Wow. First time I've ever been personally accused of being "a major
> reason for the downward spiral of society." --Declan]

  Rookie...
 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 11:53:27 -0500
> From: Jodi Hoffman <jlhoffm@ibm.net>
> To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
> Subject: Why porn must be stopped at all costs.....
> 
> ALL:
> I've forgotten how long I've been on this email list.  Maybe too long.

  Don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out.

> As I wander back through all the posts on this list, it finally dawns on
> me what this is all about, this 'fight censorship' rhetoric.  It's
> nothing more and nothing less than a lot of egotistical, self-serving
> brats who absolutely refuse to grow up, including you, Declan.  Don't
> you realize that YOU are a major reason for the downward spiral of
> society?

  Why do I get the feeling that this Dumb Cunt (TM) has 'all of the
answers' for society and everyone in it, and is about to share them 
with us?
  Well, if she expects us to listen to the divine wisdom of her
words from the mount, I guess she had better explain to us how we
are just dirt under her feet, so that we will realize we need to
listen and learn from her.

>  Instead of trying to protect children, you want to empower
> them.

  The shame! The shame!

>  Even a moron knows that when you do so, that power has to be
> taken from someone.  

  Typo...*should* read "Only a moron knows..."

>Unfortunately, that someone is the parent.  I have
> to ask myself just how many on this list have children.  Not many, I
> would say.

  That's right...you ask AND answer the questions, and we'll just 
sit here and shut the fuck up.

> Someone on this list, I forget who, has made numerous attempts at
> convincing us that pornography 'does no harm' to children.

  Does "numerous attempts at convincing" translate to "expressed an
opinion I disagreed with?"

>  It is
> exactly at this point that I must draw a line.  Studies have shown that
> an event which lasts even so much as three-tenths of a second, within
> five to ten minutes has produced a structural change in the brain.
> Exposure to porn causes actual brain damage, especially in a child.

  Good idea to make vague, unsubstantiated claims in this area. If you
provided sources and references, someone might be able to throw them
back in your face and laugh at you for being an ignorant sack of shit,
using self-serving 'studies' to support untenable logic.
 
> So, keep protecting your porn-induced orgasms.

  Protecting? Hell, I strive to share them with as many people as
possible. 

>  That's exactly what happened with the Hitler youth, etc...

  Uuhhh...you've got a 'study' to not-quote on this theory too, eh?

>  After all, I'm sure it does help
> to blur the lines of reality.

  This makes even less sense than the last sentence. Are you trying
to communicate propaganda that you don't fully understand?
  Perhaps you should just stick to slogans and sound-bytes, rather 
than trying to turn strings of disparate sentences into paragraphs.

<end of 'Windup'>
> =====================
<and here comes the 'Pitch'>

> Please PRINT THIS OUT and save for later reference.  Rules number 1
> through 7 have already been put into effect.  Rule number 8 is currently
> being implemented.  Numbers 9 and 10 are already in the beginning
> phases.   If you're not yet convinced that you are contributing to the
> ruination of America, I would hope you will be by the time you finish
> reading this.
> Paul and Jodi Hoffman
> Weston, Florida
> 
> "When an opponent declares, "I will not come over to your side", I
> calmly say, "Your child belongs to us already..."  --Adolph Hitler,
> speaking about the schools and their indoctrination of the Hilterjugend
> (Hitler Youth Corps).

  Are you positive this quote isn't from Eisenhower, in regard to the
American public educational system?

> ==================================================
> LENIN'S BLUEPRINT FOR WORLD DOMINATION
> These 'Rules' are meant to be a loose parody of the Ten Commandments,
> and are particularly emphasized at the Lenin School of Political
> Warfare.   They are practical rules that are being implemented all over
> the world -- with special emphasis on the strongest foe of Communism,
> the United States.
> Study these Rules very carefully. And then reflect upon what is
> happening in our society right now.   Perhaps this list will provide
> answers to some of the questions that seemed --until now -- to have no
> answers.
> Lenin himself said that it didn't matter that three-fourths of the world
> be destroyed, just so the remnant were good Communists.

  Are you sure this wasn't Nixon, taling about Vietnam and Democracy?
 
> RULE FOR REVOLUTION #1:     CORRUPT THE NATION'S YOUTH

  Alright! Party time!
 
> THE RULE:
> The future of any nation lies with its youth. So corrupt them; since
> religion teaches moral virtue, erode the churches and divert the young
> from religion. Make them interested only in themselves. Get them
> involved in drugs, alcohol, and sex. Get them addicted to privileges and
> rights.
>
> THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> Many of today's youth are grossly overprivileged, committed to fashion,
> physically flabby and lazy, and mentally undisciplined. If they don't
> want to do something, they simply will not do it. And if they want to do
> something to indulge themselves, no law or moral standard will hold them
> back.  They feel that they are entitled to the 'good things in life,'
> not as a reward for hard work, but as an expected gift, to be received
> without effort and even without asking.  And where do they learn such
> slovenliness? Just spend two hours in front of a television watching a
> random selection of situation comedies to find out. Unfortunately, kids
> who fit the above description usually model themselves after their
> parents.  Such parasitic habits would not be tolerated in the former
> Soviet Union.
> The prevailing attitude among today's pampered American youth is one of
> nihilism ( I am nothing, life has no meaning, I don't care) -- and for
> good reason.  Over 75 percent of America's high school boys now think
> it's acceptable to rape a girl at any age.  Wonder why anymore?

THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
  It sounds like the Dumb Cunt (TM) is suggesting that the former Soviet
Union would have been a better place to raise our kids.
  Yep, go to any high school and all the boys talk about is going over
to the maternity wing of the hospital and porking the little sluts as
they exit the womb. Honest! There are _studies_ that show this!

 > RULE FOR REVOLUTION #2:     CONTROL THE MASS MEDIA
> 
> THE RULE:
> Since the media shapes the minds of the people, infiltrate it and
> control it.  Dominate television, radio, and the newspapers, and you
> control the minds of the people.
>
> THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> It is quite obvious that traditional values are considered ridiculous to
> all branches of the media.   Christians, clergy, and even Christ Himself
> are held up as objects of scorn and mocking laughter by television,
> motion pictures, radio, artists, and songwriters.  In the place of
> decency and morality, a constant stream of Left-wing values is
> presented.
> Homosexuality, abortion, violence, and contempt for all parental and
> governmental authority is the prevailing order of the day.   A
> particularly powerful form of media is represented by the so-called
> "arts community."   Some latter-day "artists" actually make a
> pretty good living by mocking traditional values and Christianity.
> Consider Andres Sorrano's "Piss Christ" (a photograph of a crucifix
> submerged in urine) or Robert Mapplethorp's photos, which include one
> showing a bullwhip protruding out of his rear end.
> 
> This media bias is not a fantasy of a few right-wing whiners; this is
> cold, hard reality.
> The extreme leftward tilt of the media has been documented by impartial
> observers and study managers, and has even been acknowledged by the
> press itself.

THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
  It is unconscienable for the mass media to hold traditional values 
up to scorn, and mock Ra, Isis, and the many, many gods who were born
of a virgin and died and rose after three days, the last of which was...
hang on, his name is on the tip of my tongue...Jesus!
  Remember: left wing values =/= decency and morality
  Is the Dumb Cunt telling us that the Moral Majority, which would
by definition be the "prevailing order of the day," are a bunch of
queer, violent aborionists with contempt for parental authority?
I _thought_ there was something weird about those fuckers.
  Those were non-Christian 'impartial' observers and study managers,
right? <snicker-snicker-guffah!>

 > RULE FOR REVOLUTION #3:     ENCOURAGE PUBLIC INDIFFERENCE
> 
> THE RULE:
> Cause the people to become disinterested in their own government and in
> world affairs. Get them to feel disenfranchised. Get them to ridicule
> and lose respect for government leaders.
> 
> THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> Americans now vote at a lower rate than at any other time in our
> history. Every American knows how disenfranchised and powerless the
> average voter feels.  The media constantly trumpet instances of
> hypocrisy and corruption in our government, despite the fact that we
> have the most open and honest political system in the world.

  Hold it!
  <laugh> <barf> <laugh> <barf>
  OK, continue...

>   The
> United States Supreme Court has wrested much of the State's power from
> them with judicial activism.   This means that the people's
> representatives at the State level -- and therefore the people
> themselves -- have much less of a voice in their own government.
> On the state level, when people or local legislators finally manage to
> pass a conservative law regarding abortion, pornography or
> homosexuality, it is invariably challenged by Neo-liberal groups and
> struck down by higher courts, leading voters to ask themselves
> "Why bother participating in the process? We have no real voice in how
> things are run anyway!"

THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
  This is the communists doing this, again, right? Flouridated water,
etc?
 
> RULE FOR REVOLUTION #4:     ENCOURAGE PUBLIC BICKERING
> 
> THE RULE:
> Divide the people into hostile groups. Divide them against themselves by
> getting them to squabble about inconsequential social issues.
> 
> THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> Never before have so many trivial issues captured so much air time.
> Major construction and other projects are halted due to sometimes
> trivial environmental concerns.  Critical research which uses animals is
> halted or impeded by animal-rights groups.  Sodomy rights, old- growth
> timber, anti-fur, and dozens of other Neoliberal causes (and the
> conservative backlash) cause more friction among our nation's people
> than in any other nation in the world.
> 
> Meanwhile, the real issues of importance are either entirely neglected
> or paid weak lip service:   Crime, poverty, hunger and, beneath all of
> them, the moral disintegration of our country.   All of these have lead
> to despair among those affected and encourage violent change at any
> cost, with no thought given to the kind of change being fought for.
> Naturally, when conservatives react to Neoliberal initiatives with
> concrete action, they are painted as agents of "divisiveness" and
> "disunity," further leading to the impression that American society is
> composed entirely of squabbling special-interest groups.

THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
  If the Dumb Cunt (TM) and her right-wing bum-buddies would quit
opposing environmental concerns, animal-rights, sodomy and dozens 
of other Neoliberal causes, then there wouldn't be all of that 
bickering now, would there? 
  The TruthMonger of the fact is, the problem is that the "real issues
of importance" *_ARE_* the subject of "concrete action" by those who
have decided that their own conservative values should be legislated
into governmental existence in the interests of punishing and 
imprisoning those with different values.
  I've never seen anyone imprisoned for _not_ smoking a joint.
  Think about _that_ you Ignorant Nazi Bitch!

> RULE FOR REVOLUTION #5:      SEIZE POWER, THEN CENSOR
> 
> THE RULE:
> Always preach true democracy, but seize power as completely and
> ruthlessly as possible.  Vigorously censor viewpoints that conflict with
> ours.
> 
> THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> If the slightest complaint against pornography in our schools is raised
> by concerned parents, People for the American Way (PAW), the ACLU, and
> other left-wing groups instantly shout "censorship!"   But they say not
> a word when it is pointed out that the Bible and all mention of morality
> in textbooks have been ruthlessly hounded from the schools.
> 
> Religion has literally disappeared from our children's textbooks. The
> media relentlessly suppress the reasoning behind conservative and
> traditional viewpoints while reporting their version of the facts and
> claiming "impartiality."
> 
> Artists' demand that the people pay for their atrocities. When the
> people balk, the 'artists' whine about censorship. All traditional
> groups and viewpoints are fair game for ridicule; yet when was the last
> time you saw any 'artist' making fun of sodomites or women?
> 
> In other words, the censorship is all one-way. And the "pluralism"
> valued so much by the Neoliberals is entirely unilateral (one way only).
> 
> Communist atrocities which have killed more than 150 million all over
> the world are glossed over or ignored, but the most trivial
> international action by the United States brings immediate and forceful
> condemnation.

THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
  The Bibles were removed from the schools by the white Christian
kids barricaded inside, thowing the Bibles at the niggers, as they
tried to enter the school buildings. While waiting for the Bibles
to be replaced the students had nothing left to read but the
Constitution, and realized that the Bibles shouldn't have been
there in the first place.
  I would like to remind the Dumb Cunt that there are no laws
prohibiting her children from bowing and praying toward Mecca
three times a day, and it would probably do them some good.
  The rest of the points above merely serve to illustrate that
conservatives can't handle good acid, and should probably stick
to booze.
 
> RULE FOR REVOLUTION #6:       BANKRUPT THE GOVERNMENT
> 
> THE RULE:
> Encourage government extravagance on every front.
> Get the government deeply into debt. Get the people dependent on
> government by providing for their every need. This destroys their
> independence, motivation and strength.
> 
> THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> The United States is flat broke. It is the number one debtor nation on
> earth, with a deficit of more than $5,000,000,000,000 (five trillion
> dollars).   Social programs pay for everything from abortion and
> homosexual-run "sensitivity training sessions" to comprehensive sex
> education.
> 
> We are the most truly Socialistic society on earth, a nation
> of people addicted to entitlements, unable to break away from the ample
> government teat, people who scream at the top of our lungs if any
> cutbacks in services are proposed.
> 
> And yet, the Neoliberals want to spend even more.
> 
> They want us to fund family benefits for sodomites, a comprehensive
> health care plan that will inevitably turn into a Britain-like
> socialized horror, and "art" that is blatantly obscene.

THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
  I agree with the Dumb Cunt (TM) on this point. We need to fuck
away our money on billions and billions of dollars of nuclear arms,
weapons, surveillance equipment, secret agents and assassins, etc.
  A decent and moral society can only be ensured by buying 10,000
toilet seats for the Pentagon.
  (Jesus. You _really_are_ a Dumb Cunt (TM), aren't you?)
 
> RULE FOR REVOLUTION #7:       DESTROY NATIONAL VALUES
> 
> THE RULE:
> Cause a breakdown of indigenous national values.  Destroy all tradition
> in preparation for the bright dawn of glorious Socialism.  Ridicule
> religion, patriotism, and honesty. The people must be led to have only
> one interest:   Themselves!
> 
> THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> >From the public schools to the pulpits of Christian "churches," moral
> relativism and situational ethics are the rule of the day. The highest
> goods are compassion, nonjudgmentalism, and tolerance.
> Any individual weakness is treated as a problem of society, not of the
> person, and this relieves everyone of the responsibility of improving
> themselves.
> 
> Why should there be any effort to take responsibility for one's own
> faults when "society" is so conveniently ready to take the blame for all
> one's sins? Society has made the sacrifice.   So criminals, addicts,
> alcoholics, child molesters, wife beaters, and others can always blame
> their problems on society.
> 
> We have truly become the "me generation."

THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
  The Dumb Cunt (TM) is beginning to degenerate into drooling and
meaningless generalizations which make little sense.
 
> RULE FOR REVOLUTION #8:       ATTACK GUN OWNERSHIP
> 
> THE RULE:
> Control or register all firearms if possible. This will make their
> confiscation much easier when the time comes for revolution.
> 
> THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> When the Communist Revolution occurs in the United States, the last
> thing the Red Armies want to face is ten million determined and
> well-trained guerrillas (gun owners) taking potshots at them from around
> every corner.
> 
> The Communists don't want the equivalent of ten Afghanistans in the
> United States.
> 
> Although the objective of inhibiting gun ownership has not yet been
> completely met, there are dozens of bills and initiatives being
> submitted all over the country for compulsory gun registration,
> permitting, and other controls.   The Second Amendment is
> disregarded entirely as Neoliberals trumpet for all guns to be totally
> banned.
> After all, they say, thousands die from gun-related accidents and crimes
> every year. They fail to see that criminals will always get guns, a
> parallel to their own argument stating that, if abortion becomes
> illegal, women will still get abortions.

THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
  I guess it was a mistake for the Dumb Cunt (TM) and her right-wing
bum-buddies to join the left-wing sodomy artists in electing so
goddamn many Communist gun-snatchers to political office.
  I think we ought to give Hinkley his gun back, as soon as 
another Republican is elected President.

 > RULES FOR REVOLUTION #9 AND #10:    UNDERMINE THE ARMED FORCES
> 
> THE RULES:
> Destroy the reputation of the armed forces.
> Cause the young men to perceive military duty as distasteful and
> ridiculous. Fight registration of any kind, and encourage defections
> within the ranks.
> Cause the people to desire peace at any cost.   Cause them to oppose any
> and all of their government's actions regarding the strengthening or use
> of their armed forces.
> 
> THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> Our country's armed forces consume a vast percentage of our gross
> national product.
> We possess the best and most advanced weapons systems in the world. But
> our armed forces are a joke for two reasons:
> (1) they are completely restrained in their actions by a hostile
> Congress, and
> (2) the armed forces have been saddled with such a bad reputation that
> it is virtually impossible to fill the ranks with volunteers, even in
> the new and streamlined armed services.
> 
> Where serving in the armed forces was once considered patriotic and
> honorable (as it was in the former Soviet Union), it is now looked upon
> as foolish and 'anti-progressive.'
> 
> Servicemen are ridiculed and denigrated at every turn. People say that,
> if you can't make it on the outside, you wind up in the armed forces.
> 
> Every serviceman is considered to be a useless gobbler of tax money.

THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
  And all of the good soldiers, like Tim McVeigh, end up leaving.
 
> FINAL REALITY:  WELCOME TO AMERIKA, COMRADES.
> ================================================================
> The 'Rules for Revolution' described here are the most important actions
> that can be taken to weaken a country in order to prepare it for armed
> attack or a skillful coup d'etat.  These rules are summaries that are
> extracted from a number of books written by professional revolutionaries
> from the former Soviet Union, from other Communist-dominated countries,
> and from the United States itself.
> They are most concisely summarized in the 2,225 page, three-volume set
> Lenin: Selected Works , distributed in English by Progress Publishers,
> 21, Zubovsky Boulevard, Moscow.
> These general principles, dedicated to one of the most famous
> revolutionaries of all time, Vladimir Lenin, are studied by every
> Communist political scientist, and by every ambassador or emissary of
> any type who leaves the former Soviet Union.  They are also studied in
> great detail by many Americans.

THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
  Vladimir Lenin's best friend in the whole, wide world, is the Dumb
Cunt (TM) and her Nazi Christian bum-buddies. 
  The Godless Communists and the Nazi Christians could trade their
brochures and just interchange the words  "Commie" and "Christian."

  I wish I had a penny for every Dumb Cunt (TM) and Stupid Prick (TM)
who spent the majority of their time promoting the very same beliefs
as those they claim to oppose, the only difference being that their
'solution' is the MLM promoting of a 'god' with a different name,
or a 'flag' with a different 'hang time.'

> --
> Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp
> Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
> 1304 SW 160th Avenue, Suite 122  Weston, Florida 33326
> Phone: (954) 349-0366   Fax: (954) 349-0361

  Why does it not come as a surprise that this Dumb Cunt Nazi Christian
Bitch (TM) is hiding behind 'the children,' hoping that it will prevent
her from being a target of reprisal for the bullshit she is flinging
at others?

Why doesn't someone shoot this Dumb Cunt Nazi Christian Bitch?
If it saves the life of just one child...

TruthMonger

This Jodi Hoffman is most likely laughing at you all
after baiting you so successfully.

I refuse to believe that she could have been so dumb to write
what she wrote, seriously.


igor

TruthMonger wrote:
> 
> 
> Having Tourette Syndrome can sometimes be a burden, particularly when
> one goes through a long period where their obscene outbursts are serving
> no particular purpose. So it is refreshing when I come across situations
> where all of those huddled masses of naughty words, struggling to be
> free, can be expressed in a meaningful manner, thus living a productive
> life instead of being just wasted.
> 
> Declan McCullagh wrote:
> > [Wow. First time I've ever been personally accused of being "a major
> > reason for the downward spiral of society." --Declan]
> 
>   Rookie...
>  
> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 11:53:27 -0500
> > From: Jodi Hoffman <jlhoffm@ibm.net>
> > To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
> > Subject: Why porn must be stopped at all costs.....
> > 
> > ALL:
> > I've forgotten how long I've been on this email list.  Maybe too long.
> 
>   Don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out.
> 
> > As I wander back through all the posts on this list, it finally dawns on
> > me what this is all about, this 'fight censorship' rhetoric.  It's
> > nothing more and nothing less than a lot of egotistical, self-serving
> > brats who absolutely refuse to grow up, including you, Declan.  Don't
> > you realize that YOU are a major reason for the downward spiral of
> > society?
> 
>   Why do I get the feeling that this Dumb Cunt (TM) has 'all of the
> answers' for society and everyone in it, and is about to share them 
> with us?
>   Well, if she expects us to listen to the divine wisdom of her
> words from the mount, I guess she had better explain to us how we
> are just dirt under her feet, so that we will realize we need to
> listen and learn from her.
> 
> >  Instead of trying to protect children, you want to empower
> > them.
> 
>   The shame! The shame!
> 
> >  Even a moron knows that when you do so, that power has to be
> > taken from someone.  
> 
>   Typo...*should* read "Only a moron knows..."
> 
> >Unfortunately, that someone is the parent.  I have
> > to ask myself just how many on this list have children.  Not many, I
> > would say.
> 
>   That's right...you ask AND answer the questions, and we'll just 
> sit here and shut the fuck up.
> 
> > Someone on this list, I forget who, has made numerous attempts at
> > convincing us that pornography 'does no harm' to children.
> 
>   Does "numerous attempts at convincing" translate to "expressed an
> opinion I disagreed with?"
> 
> >  It is
> > exactly at this point that I must draw a line.  Studies have shown that
> > an event which lasts even so much as three-tenths of a second, within
> > five to ten minutes has produced a structural change in the brain.
> > Exposure to porn causes actual brain damage, especially in a child.
> 
>   Good idea to make vague, unsubstantiated claims in this area. If you
> provided sources and references, someone might be able to throw them
> back in your face and laugh at you for being an ignorant sack of shit,
> using self-serving 'studies' to support untenable logic.
>  
> > So, keep protecting your porn-induced orgasms.
> 
>   Protecting? Hell, I strive to share them with as many people as
> possible. 
> 
> >  That's exactly what happened with the Hitler youth, etc...
> 
>   Uuhhh...you've got a 'study' to not-quote on this theory too, eh?
> 
> >  After all, I'm sure it does help
> > to blur the lines of reality.
> 
>   This makes even less sense than the last sentence. Are you trying
> to communicate propaganda that you don't fully understand?
>   Perhaps you should just stick to slogans and sound-bytes, rather 
> than trying to turn strings of disparate sentences into paragraphs.
> 
> <end of 'Windup'>
> > =====================
> <and here comes the 'Pitch'>
> 
> > Please PRINT THIS OUT and save for later reference.  Rules number 1
> > through 7 have already been put into effect.  Rule number 8 is currently
> > being implemented.  Numbers 9 and 10 are already in the beginning
> > phases.   If you're not yet convinced that you are contributing to the
> > ruination of America, I would hope you will be by the time you finish
> > reading this.
> > Paul and Jodi Hoffman
> > Weston, Florida
> > 
> > "When an opponent declares, "I will not come over to your side", I
> > calmly say, "Your child belongs to us already..."  --Adolph Hitler,
> > speaking about the schools and their indoctrination of the Hilterjugend
> > (Hitler Youth Corps).
> 
>   Are you positive this quote isn't from Eisenhower, in regard to the
> American public educational system?
> 
> > ==================================================
> > LENIN'S BLUEPRINT FOR WORLD DOMINATION
> > These 'Rules' are meant to be a loose parody of the Ten Commandments,
> > and are particularly emphasized at the Lenin School of Political
> > Warfare.   They are practical rules that are being implemented all over
> > the world -- with special emphasis on the strongest foe of Communism,
> > the United States.
> > Study these Rules very carefully. And then reflect upon what is
> > happening in our society right now.   Perhaps this list will provide
> > answers to some of the questions that seemed --until now -- to have no
> > answers.
> > Lenin himself said that it didn't matter that three-fourths of the world
> > be destroyed, just so the remnant were good Communists.
> 
>   Are you sure this wasn't Nixon, taling about Vietnam and Democracy?
>  
> > RULE FOR REVOLUTION #1:     CORRUPT THE NATION'S YOUTH
> 
>   Alright! Party time!
>  
> > THE RULE:
> > The future of any nation lies with its youth. So corrupt them; since
> > religion teaches moral virtue, erode the churches and divert the young
> > from religion. Make them interested only in themselves. Get them
> > involved in drugs, alcohol, and sex. Get them addicted to privileges and
> > rights.
> >
> > THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> > Many of today's youth are grossly overprivileged, committed to fashion,
> > physically flabby and lazy, and mentally undisciplined. If they don't
> > want to do something, they simply will not do it. And if they want to do
> > something to indulge themselves, no law or moral standard will hold them
> > back.  They feel that they are entitled to the 'good things in life,'
> > not as a reward for hard work, but as an expected gift, to be received
> > without effort and even without asking.  And where do they learn such
> > slovenliness? Just spend two hours in front of a television watching a
> > random selection of situation comedies to find out. Unfortunately, kids
> > who fit the above description usually model themselves after their
> > parents.  Such parasitic habits would not be tolerated in the former
> > Soviet Union.
> > The prevailing attitude among today's pampered American youth is one of
> > nihilism ( I am nothing, life has no meaning, I don't care) -- and for
> > good reason.  Over 75 percent of America's high school boys now think
> > it's acceptable to rape a girl at any age.  Wonder why anymore?
> 
> THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
>   It sounds like the Dumb Cunt (TM) is suggesting that the former Soviet
> Union would have been a better place to raise our kids.
>   Yep, go to any high school and all the boys talk about is going over
> to the maternity wing of the hospital and porking the little sluts as
> they exit the womb. Honest! There are _studies_ that show this!
> 
>  > RULE FOR REVOLUTION #2:     CONTROL THE MASS MEDIA
> > 
> > THE RULE:
> > Since the media shapes the minds of the people, infiltrate it and
> > control it.  Dominate television, radio, and the newspapers, and you
> > control the minds of the people.
> >
> > THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> > It is quite obvious that traditional values are considered ridiculous to
> > all branches of the media.   Christians, clergy, and even Christ Himself
> > are held up as objects of scorn and mocking laughter by television,
> > motion pictures, radio, artists, and songwriters.  In the place of
> > decency and morality, a constant stream of Left-wing values is
> > presented.
> > Homosexuality, abortion, violence, and contempt for all parental and
> > governmental authority is the prevailing order of the day.   A
> > particularly powerful form of media is represented by the so-called
> > "arts community."   Some latter-day "artists" actually make a
> > pretty good living by mocking traditional values and Christianity.
> > Consider Andres Sorrano's "Piss Christ" (a photograph of a crucifix
> > submerged in urine) or Robert Mapplethorp's photos, which include one
> > showing a bullwhip protruding out of his rear end.
> > 
> > This media bias is not a fantasy of a few right-wing whiners; this is
> > cold, hard reality.
> > The extreme leftward tilt of the media has been documented by impartial
> > observers and study managers, and has even been acknowledged by the
> > press itself.
> 
> THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
>   It is unconscienable for the mass media to hold traditional values 
> up to scorn, and mock Ra, Isis, and the many, many gods who were born
> of a virgin and died and rose after three days, the last of which was...
> hang on, his name is on the tip of my tongue...Jesus!
>   Remember: left wing values =/= decency and morality
>   Is the Dumb Cunt telling us that the Moral Majority, which would
> by definition be the "prevailing order of the day," are a bunch of
> queer, violent aborionists with contempt for parental authority?
> I _thought_ there was something weird about those fuckers.
>   Those were non-Christian 'impartial' observers and study managers,
> right? <snicker-snicker-guffah!>
> 
>  > RULE FOR REVOLUTION #3:     ENCOURAGE PUBLIC INDIFFERENCE
> > 
> > THE RULE:
> > Cause the people to become disinterested in their own government and in
> > world affairs. Get them to feel disenfranchised. Get them to ridicule
> > and lose respect for government leaders.
> > 
> > THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> > Americans now vote at a lower rate than at any other time in our
> > history. Every American knows how disenfranchised and powerless the
> > average voter feels.  The media constantly trumpet instances of
> > hypocrisy and corruption in our government, despite the fact that we
> > have the most open and honest political system in the world.
> 
>   Hold it!
>   <laugh> <barf> <laugh> <barf>
>   OK, continue...
> 
> >   The
> > United States Supreme Court has wrested much of the State's power from
> > them with judicial activism.   This means that the people's
> > representatives at the State level -- and therefore the people
> > themselves -- have much less of a voice in their own government.
> > On the state level, when people or local legislators finally manage to
> > pass a conservative law regarding abortion, pornography or
> > homosexuality, it is invariably challenged by Neo-liberal groups and
> > struck down by higher courts, leading voters to ask themselves
> > "Why bother participating in the process? We have no real voice in how
> > things are run anyway!"
> 
> THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
>   This is the communists doing this, again, right? Flouridated water,
> etc?
>  
> > RULE FOR REVOLUTION #4:     ENCOURAGE PUBLIC BICKERING
> > 
> > THE RULE:
> > Divide the people into hostile groups. Divide them against themselves by
> > getting them to squabble about inconsequential social issues.
> > 
> > THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> > Never before have so many trivial issues captured so much air time.
> > Major construction and other projects are halted due to sometimes
> > trivial environmental concerns.  Critical research which uses animals is
> > halted or impeded by animal-rights groups.  Sodomy rights, old- growth
> > timber, anti-fur, and dozens of other Neoliberal causes (and the
> > conservative backlash) cause more friction among our nation's people
> > than in any other nation in the world.
> > 
> > Meanwhile, the real issues of importance are either entirely neglected
> > or paid weak lip service:   Crime, poverty, hunger and, beneath all of
> > them, the moral disintegration of our country.   All of these have lead
> > to despair among those affected and encourage violent change at any
> > cost, with no thought given to the kind of change being fought for.
> > Naturally, when conservatives react to Neoliberal initiatives with
> > concrete action, they are painted as agents of "divisiveness" and
> > "disunity," further leading to the impression that American society is
> > composed entirely of squabbling special-interest groups.
> 
> THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
>   If the Dumb Cunt (TM) and her right-wing bum-buddies would quit
> opposing environmental concerns, animal-rights, sodomy and dozens 
> of other Neoliberal causes, then there wouldn't be all of that 
> bickering now, would there? 
>   The TruthMonger of the fact is, the problem is that the "real issues
> of importance" *_ARE_* the subject of "concrete action" by those who
> have decided that their own conservative values should be legislated
> into governmental existence in the interests of punishing and 
> imprisoning those with different values.
>   I've never seen anyone imprisoned for _not_ smoking a joint.
>   Think about _that_ you Ignorant Nazi Bitch!
> 
> > RULE FOR REVOLUTION #5:      SEIZE POWER, THEN CENSOR
> > 
> > THE RULE:
> > Always preach true democracy, but seize power as completely and
> > ruthlessly as possible.  Vigorously censor viewpoints that conflict with
> > ours.
> > 
> > THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> > If the slightest complaint against pornography in our schools is raised
> > by concerned parents, People for the American Way (PAW), the ACLU, and
> > other left-wing groups instantly shout "censorship!"   But they say not
> > a word when it is pointed out that the Bible and all mention of morality
> > in textbooks have been ruthlessly hounded from the schools.
> > 
> > Religion has literally disappeared from our children's textbooks. The
> > media relentlessly suppress the reasoning behind conservative and
> > traditional viewpoints while reporting their version of the facts and
> > claiming "impartiality."
> > 
> > Artists' demand that the people pay for their atrocities. When the
> > people balk, the 'artists' whine about censorship. All traditional
> > groups and viewpoints are fair game for ridicule; yet when was the last
> > time you saw any 'artist' making fun of sodomites or women?
> > 
> > In other words, the censorship is all one-way. And the "pluralism"
> > valued so much by the Neoliberals is entirely unilateral (one way only).
> > 
> > Communist atrocities which have killed more than 150 million all over
> > the world are glossed over or ignored, but the most trivial
> > international action by the United States brings immediate and forceful
> > condemnation.
> 
> THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
>   The Bibles were removed from the schools by the white Christian
> kids barricaded inside, thowing the Bibles at the niggers, as they
> tried to enter the school buildings. While waiting for the Bibles
> to be replaced the students had nothing left to read but the
> Constitution, and realized that the Bibles shouldn't have been
> there in the first place.
>   I would like to remind the Dumb Cunt that there are no laws
> prohibiting her children from bowing and praying toward Mecca
> three times a day, and it would probably do them some good.
>   The rest of the points above merely serve to illustrate that
> conservatives can't handle good acid, and should probably stick
> to booze.
>  
> > RULE FOR REVOLUTION #6:       BANKRUPT THE GOVERNMENT
> > 
> > THE RULE:
> > Encourage government extravagance on every front.
> > Get the government deeply into debt. Get the people dependent on
> > government by providing for their every need. This destroys their
> > independence, motivation and strength.
> > 
> > THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> > The United States is flat broke. It is the number one debtor nation on
> > earth, with a deficit of more than $5,000,000,000,000 (five trillion
> > dollars).   Social programs pay for everything from abortion and
> > homosexual-run "sensitivity training sessions" to comprehensive sex
> > education.
> > 
> > We are the most truly Socialistic society on earth, a nation
> > of people addicted to entitlements, unable to break away from the ample
> > government teat, people who scream at the top of our lungs if any
> > cutbacks in services are proposed.
> > 
> > And yet, the Neoliberals want to spend even more.
> > 
> > They want us to fund family benefits for sodomites, a comprehensive
> > health care plan that will inevitably turn into a Britain-like
> > socialized horror, and "art" that is blatantly obscene.
> 
> THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
>   I agree with the Dumb Cunt (TM) on this point. We need to fuck
> away our money on billions and billions of dollars of nuclear arms,
> weapons, surveillance equipment, secret agents and assassins, etc.
>   A decent and moral society can only be ensured by buying 10,000
> toilet seats for the Pentagon.
>   (Jesus. You _really_are_ a Dumb Cunt (TM), aren't you?)
>  
> > RULE FOR REVOLUTION #7:       DESTROY NATIONAL VALUES
> > 
> > THE RULE:
> > Cause a breakdown of indigenous national values.  Destroy all tradition
> > in preparation for the bright dawn of glorious Socialism.  Ridicule
> > religion, patriotism, and honesty. The people must be led to have only
> > one interest:   Themselves!
> > 
> > THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> > >From the public schools to the pulpits of Christian "churches," moral
> > relativism and situational ethics are the rule of the day. The highest
> > goods are compassion, nonjudgmentalism, and tolerance.
> > Any individual weakness is treated as a problem of society, not of the
> > person, and this relieves everyone of the responsibility of improving
> > themselves.
> > 
> > Why should there be any effort to take responsibility for one's own
> > faults when "society" is so conveniently ready to take the blame for all
> > one's sins? Society has made the sacrifice.   So criminals, addicts,
> > alcoholics, child molesters, wife beaters, and others can always blame
> > their problems on society.
> > 
> > We have truly become the "me generation."
> 
> THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
>   The Dumb Cunt (TM) is beginning to degenerate into drooling and
> meaningless generalizations which make little sense.
>  
> > RULE FOR REVOLUTION #8:       ATTACK GUN OWNERSHIP
> > 
> > THE RULE:
> > Control or register all firearms if possible. This will make their
> > confiscation much easier when the time comes for revolution.
> > 
> > THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> > When the Communist Revolution occurs in the United States, the last
> > thing the Red Armies want to face is ten million determined and
> > well-trained guerrillas (gun owners) taking potshots at them from around
> > every corner.
> > 
> > The Communists don't want the equivalent of ten Afghanistans in the
> > United States.
> > 
> > Although the objective of inhibiting gun ownership has not yet been
> > completely met, there are dozens of bills and initiatives being
> > submitted all over the country for compulsory gun registration,
> > permitting, and other controls.   The Second Amendment is
> > disregarded entirely as Neoliberals trumpet for all guns to be totally
> > banned.
> > After all, they say, thousands die from gun-related accidents and crimes
> > every year. They fail to see that criminals will always get guns, a
> > parallel to their own argument stating that, if abortion becomes
> > illegal, women will still get abortions.
> 
> THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
>   I guess it was a mistake for the Dumb Cunt (TM) and her right-wing
> bum-buddies to join the left-wing sodomy artists in electing so
> goddamn many Communist gun-snatchers to political office.
>   I think we ought to give Hinkley his gun back, as soon as 
> another Republican is elected President.
> 
>  > RULES FOR REVOLUTION #9 AND #10:    UNDERMINE THE ARMED FORCES
> > 
> > THE RULES:
> > Destroy the reputation of the armed forces.
> > Cause the young men to perceive military duty as distasteful and
> > ridiculous. Fight registration of any kind, and encourage defections
> > within the ranks.
> > Cause the people to desire peace at any cost.   Cause them to oppose any
> > and all of their government's actions regarding the strengthening or use
> > of their armed forces.
> > 
> > THE DUMB CUNT'S OPINION:
> > Our country's armed forces consume a vast percentage of our gross
> > national product.
> > We possess the best and most advanced weapons systems in the world. But
> > our armed forces are a joke for two reasons:
> > (1) they are completely restrained in their actions by a hostile
> > Congress, and
> > (2) the armed forces have been saddled with such a bad reputation that
> > it is virtually impossible to fill the ranks with volunteers, even in
> > the new and streamlined armed services.
> > 
> > Where serving in the armed forces was once considered patriotic and
> > honorable (as it was in the former Soviet Union), it is now looked upon
> > as foolish and 'anti-progressive.'
> > 
> > Servicemen are ridiculed and denigrated at every turn. People say that,
> > if you can't make it on the outside, you wind up in the armed forces.
> > 
> > Every serviceman is considered to be a useless gobbler of tax money.
> 
> THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
>   And all of the good soldiers, like Tim McVeigh, end up leaving.
>  
> > FINAL REALITY:  WELCOME TO AMERIKA, COMRADES.
> > ================================================================
> > The 'Rules for Revolution' described here are the most important actions
> > that can be taken to weaken a country in order to prepare it for armed
> > attack or a skillful coup d'etat.  These rules are summaries that are
> > extracted from a number of books written by professional revolutionaries
> > from the former Soviet Union, from other Communist-dominated countries,
> > and from the United States itself.
> > They are most concisely summarized in the 2,225 page, three-volume set
> > Lenin: Selected Works , distributed in English by Progress Publishers,
> > 21, Zubovsky Boulevard, Moscow.
> > These general principles, dedicated to one of the most famous
> > revolutionaries of all time, Vladimir Lenin, are studied by every
> > Communist political scientist, and by every ambassador or emissary of
> > any type who leaves the former Soviet Union.  They are also studied in
> > great detail by many Americans.
> 
> THE TRUTHMONGERING VERNACULAR TRANSLATION AND CRITIQUE:
>   Vladimir Lenin's best friend in the whole, wide world, is the Dumb
> Cunt (TM) and her Nazi Christian bum-buddies. 
>   The Godless Communists and the Nazi Christians could trade their
> brochures and just interchange the words  "Commie" and "Christian."
> 
>   I wish I had a penny for every Dumb Cunt (TM) and Stupid Prick (TM)
> who spent the majority of their time promoting the very same beliefs
> as those they claim to oppose, the only difference being that their
> 'solution' is the MLM promoting of a 'god' with a different name,
> or a 'flag' with a different 'hang time.'
> 
> > --
> > Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp
> > Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
> > 1304 SW 160th Avenue, Suite 122  Weston, Florida 33326
> > Phone: (954) 349-0366   Fax: (954) 349-0361
> 
>   Why does it not come as a surprise that this Dumb Cunt Nazi Christian
> Bitch (TM) is hiding behind 'the children,' hoping that it will prevent
> her from being a target of reprisal for the bullshit she is flinging
> at others?
> 
> Why doesn't someone shoot this Dumb Cunt Nazi Christian Bitch?
> If it saves the life of just one child...
> 
> TruthMonger
> 



	- Igor.

On Tue, 4 Nov 1997 ichudov@algebra.com wrote:

> This Jodi Hoffman is most likely laughing at you all
> after baiting you so successfully.
> 
> I refuse to believe that she could have been so dumb to write
> what she wrote, seriously.
> 
> 

I don't care, as long as she keeps writing. I love it when she talks 
dirty. There aren't many web sites dedicated to abnormal marsupial 
lifestyles, so I have to get my fun where I can.  Since my parents 
have installed NetNanny on my TRS80, thre's not much left for me.

OTOH, it might just be Toto sending another forge, trying to convince Tim 
May that Toto is actually Anita Bryant.

r.w.

Rabid Wombat wrote:
> On Tue, 4 Nov 1997 ichudov@algebra.com wrote:
> > This Jodi Hoffman is most likely laughing at you all
> > after baiting you so successfully.
> >
> > I refuse to believe that she could have been so dumb to write
> > what she wrote, seriously.

> I don't care, as long as she keeps writing. I love it when she talks
> dirty. There aren't many web sites dedicated to abnormal marsupial
> lifestyles, so I have to get my fun where I can.  Since my parents
> have installed NetNanny on my TRS80, thre's not much left for me.
> 
> OTOH, it might just be Toto sending another forge, trying to convince Tim
> May that Toto is actually Anita Bryant.

I am *really* Rabid Wombat...spam me unmercifully!

TruthBat

TruthMonger wrote:
<snipped, because it's basically a lot of crap>

Monger:

Feel better?  I certainly hope so.
By the way...for whatever it's worth:
#1...I'm Jewish, not a Nazi-loving Christian bitch.
#2...You have no idea who or what I am.  
#3...You hate that I'm right.  I love that.

"Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed." 
- Darth Vader
-- 
Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp    
Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
1304 SW 160th Avenue, Suite 122  Weston, Florida 33326
Phone: (954) 349-0366   Fax: (954) 349-0361

> TruthMonger wrote:
> <snipped, because it's basically a lot of crap>
> Monger:
> Feel better?  I certainly hope so.
> By the way...for whatever it's worth:
> #1...I'm Jewish, not a Nazi-loving Christian bitch.

	Well, with different parents, you'd have felt right at home in a 
brown shirt.

> #2...You have no idea who or what I am.  

	You just have no ideas of your own. 

> #3...You hate that I'm right.  I love that.

	Actually, you are about as right as the bastard that torched your
ancestors.

> "Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed." 
> - Darth Vader

	Even your choice of "people" to quote gives away your intentions.

At 05:45 PM 11/3/97 -0500, Jodi Hoffman wrote:
>TruthMonger wrote:
><snipped, because it's basically a lot of crap>
>
>Monger:
>
>Feel better?  I certainly hope so.
>By the way...for whatever it's worth:
>#1...I'm Jewish, not a Nazi-loving Christian bitch.

Jews, of all the people on this planet, should be the last to burn books.
We have always been a nation of scholars and readers, and the only reason
we still exist as a people is because we kept our books sacred. A Jew may
violate any commandment to save his own life, save one -- he may not
desecrate the Torah. Our culture survived through two millennia of
persecution because we had books with which we kept it alive. That you are
a bookburner is sickening to me.

Please, convert or something. I have an Uncle who would be glad to tell you
all the benefits of becoming a Christian. The Muslims would probably love
you, too. Or consider Buddhism. Anything. Please. I admit to being an
agnostic, to eating pork, to never knowing quite when Yom Kippur is...but I
still have some tiny, thin, shreds of pride in my ancestry and my heritage.

>#2...You have no idea who or what I am.  

You are a bookburner. That is enough for me.

Jodi Hoffman <jlhoffm@ibm.net> wrote:

>By the way...for whatever it's worth:
>#1...I'm Jewish, not a Nazi-loving Christian bitch.

This makes you a Nazi-loving Jewish bitch. I concur in Monger's assessment
of you as a Dumb Cunt. To expand on this, nearly every position you take is
fascist -- to pick one at random, you accuse the American people of physical
flabbiness. Now, who -- in the nineteen-thirties -- abhorred such flabbiness
in the German people & made a show of public exercise rituals:

1. Jewish Intellectuals.
2. Nazis.

Not a coincidence, either. Sedentary activities include reading, discussion,
writing, &c. -- all abhorred by fascists. Yet you claim to oppose fascism.
Dumb cunt. & this is the most trivial example.

>#2...You have no idea who or what I am.  

To a degree, true. But apply the principle to others: you know as little, or
less, about me than I know about you. Stop trying to dictate my life.

>#3...You hate that I'm right.  I love that.

You're right? Sorry, I must have missed that. Was your post cyphertext?

>"Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed." 
>- Darth Vader

Yes, Darth Vader was a card-carrying member of the ACLU.

Paul

The final elegance, not to console
Nor sanctify, but plainly to propound.

Jodi Hoffman wrote:
> Monger: 
> Feel better?  I certainly hope so.

  So you approve of my therapeutic self-abuse during email exchanges?
Looks like internet communication *does* help people to put aside
their differences and reach a common ground.

> By the way...for whatever it's worth:

  On the CypherPunks list, the going rate is $.02

> #1...I'm Jewish, not a Nazi-loving Christian bitch.

  It's OK, I won't tell anyone you killed Jesus.

> #2...You have no idea who or what I am.

  Only from your pictures on the 'Amateur Action' web site.

> #3...You hate that I'm right.  I love that.

  I am happy that you are able to find joy and increased self-esteem 
in imputing specific motives and emotives to the mad ramblings of an
obviously raving fucking lunatic, such as myself.
  Like yourself, I have very little idea of just what it was you were 
really trying to express in _your_ rambling semi-coherent missive,
and, the truth be known, I was just trying to make small talk while
trying to work up the courage to ask you if you were wearing any
panties, but I chickened out when I remembered what a savage beating
Cynthia Brown (a girl cypherpunk) gave me when I asked her.

> Jodi Hoffman   T.R.A.M.P.  http://www.go_sin.com/tramp
> Violation of Children/Research & Education Council of America

  Thanks for replying to my email. It's the first one I ever got.
Everyone else just ignores me. Go figure...

TruthMonger

> Someone on this list, I forget who, has made numerous attempts at
> convincing us that pornography 'does no harm' to children.  It is
> exactly at this point that I must draw a line.  Studies have shown that
> an event which lasts even so much as three-tenths of a second, within
> five to ten minutes has produced a structural change in the brain.

More so than any other event lasting three-tenths of a second?  I doubt
it. Visual centers of the brain are certinly not predisposed to treat
natural acts (even if depicted in somewhat unusal circumstances) as any
different than any other visual stimuli.  You're distorting the issue
geratly here.

> Exposure to porn causes actual brain damage, especially in a child.

In what sense?  In the sense that the child's view of the world doesn't
fully agree with yours?  Or in the sense that there is actual physical
damage to the brain that imparis the brains ability to function?  I might
believe that the former occurs, but not the latter.  



>So, keep protecting your porn-induced orgasms.  That's exactly what
>happened with the Hitler youth, etc...  After all, I'm sure it does help
>to blur the lines of reality.

Name calling really doesn't help contribute to a clear view of reality
either.


>RULE FOR REVOLUTION #1:     CORRUPT THE NATION'S YOUTH
>THE REALITY:
>Many of today's youth are grossly overprivileged, committed to fashion,
>physically flabby and lazy, and mentally undisciplined. If they don't
[...]
>without effort and even without asking.  And where do they learn such
>slovenliness? Just spend two hours in front of a television watching a
>random selection of situation comedies to find out. Unfortunately, kids
>who fit the above description usually model themselves after their
>parents.  Such parasitic habits would not be tolerated in the former
>Soviet Union.

Who are you blaming for this?  the media or the parents that are
neglecting their duties as parents?  If you want a child to have certain
values and bleief structures, you must teach them those structures when
they are young.  You can't ignore them and expect the TV to do the job for
oyu.  If you're complaining about problems in the youth, the blame is
squarely on the shoulders of parents who don't take care of their children
or talk to them.

>The prevailing attitude among today's pampered American youth is one of
>nihilism ( I am nothing, life has no meaning, I don't care) -- and for
>good reason.  Over 75 percent of America's high school boys now think
>it's acceptable to rape a girl at any age.  Wonder why anymore?

When these same children are increasingly treated in such a way as to have
no control over their own lives, and when their parents seem to be
driving the country into the ground, what kind of attitude do you expect?
This attitude is a mirror of the prevailing attitude in the country, and
those people that have become large-scale media figures.  The fact that
*Mike Tyson* can draw over $50 million dollars for a stupid boxing match
does nothing to improve the attitudes of today's youth.  


>RULE FOR REVOLUTION #2:     CONTROL THE MASS MEDIA
>Homosexuality, abortion, violence, and contempt for all parental and
>governmental authority is the prevailing order of the day.   A

IF this matieral offends you, eliminate it from your viewing habits, and
instruct your children as to why these types of material are offensive.

But you must remember, our Constitution was built upon the tenets of not
enforcing one person's religious beliefs upon another.  The Mayflower came
over to avoid religious persecution, the Quakers came over for similar
reasons.  Ignoring the fact that they immediately went on a were no
better, the country holds a tenet of reiligous tolerance.  This extends to
those areas where we may find things strange and offensive.  Buddhists,
(my spelling may be wrong, let me apologize now for that), etc, may have
religious observances that just make no sense to you, some may even
include ritual homosexuality.  You can't seek ot impose your belief
structure, (which is by far the minority int eh world) on the rest of the
world! 

>particularly powerful form of media is represented by the so-called
>"arts community."   Some latter-day "artists" actually make a
>pretty good living by mocking traditional values and Christianity.
>Consider Andres Sorrano's "Piss Christ" (a photograph of a crucifix
>submerged in urine) or Robert Mapplethorp's photos, which include one
>showing a bullwhip protruding out of his rear end.

And you think the Ancient Greeks and Romans felt any different about the
roots of the Christian religion?  Look for the symbology behind the art.
Perhaps the artist is trying to demonstrate his frustration with the
religions today in their unquestioning belief in mythical figures and
their lack of acceptance of a chanign culture?  Maybe not, may he just
wanted to make fun of the4 savior so he'd be guarnateed a chance to meet
Satan.  

>This media bias is not a fantasy of a few right-wing whiners; this is
>cold, hard reality.

And the other cold-hard reality is that the media doesn't give a damn what
th epeople think - even Labor Unions are left out of this so-called
"left-wing bias".  If you haven't realized it already, there are only 2 or
3 large voices left in the national media that aren't dominated by large
businesses.  (NY Times, Washington Post and Wall Stree Journal are my
picks, Declan, feel free to clarify or expand if you want)  Most of the
rest of the TV stations, Radio stations and newspapers are owned by
sseveral large comapnies, or the networks.  

>RULE FOR REVOLUTION #3:     ENCOURAGE PUBLIC INDIFFERENCE
>THE REALITY:
>Americans now vote at a lower rate than at any other time in our
>history. Every American knows how disenfranchised and powerless the
>average voter feels.  The media constantly trumpet instances of
>hypocrisy and corruption in our government, despite the fact that we
>have the most open and honest political system in the world. 

The reason the media questions the government and poitns out every
instance of corruption they can find is so that we maintain our position
of leadership in open and honest government.  If they don't question
things that seem wrong, things will only get worse.

We *are* worse off now than 50 years ago.  I live near Detroit, and go to
school and work in Detroit.  Detroit is a city suffering from a rampant
and immovible city bureacracy that wont' change.  This is something the
local media is gradually attempting to expose and force to improve,
because the area wants to see the city continue its improvemtns!

>RULE FOR REVOLUTION #4:     ENCOURAGE PUBLIC BICKERING
>THE REALITY:
>Never before have so many trivial issues captured so much air time.
>Major construction and other projects are halted due to sometimes
>trivial environmental concerns.  Critical research which uses animals is
>halted or impeded by animal-rights groups.  Sodomy rights, old- growth
>timber, anti-fur, and dozens of other Neoliberal causes (and the
>conservative backlash) cause more friction among our nation's people
>than in any other nation in the world.

Environmental concerns are almost never trivial.  We can afford a few
trivial environmental concerns if they help us stop wiping out the planet.
We are running dangerously low in old-growth forest, El-Nino is a yearly
occurence now when it used to occur once ever 7.  We have serious global
warming concerns at this point, and we have serious ground-water depletion
and contamination problems.  

Animal rights activists would never have developed any public sympathy if
it weren't for ridiculous abuses by cosmetic companies and drug companies.
(Yes, they really did kill thousands of animals for studies of dubious
value)


>Meanwhile, the real issues of importance are either entirely neglected
>or paid weak lip service:   Crime, poverty, hunger and, beneath all of
>them, the moral disintegration of our country.   All of these have lead

ahahahahaha, these have gotten *much* more press and concern that any of
the above issues.  Any mention of these creates problems in *any*
political campaign.


>RULE FOR REVOLUTION #5:      SEIZE POWER, THEN CENSOR
>THE REALITY:
>If the slightest complaint against pornography in our schools is raised
>by concerned parents, People for the American Way (PAW), the ACLU, and
>other left-wing groups instantly shout "censorship!"   But they say not
>a word when it is pointed out that the Bible and all mention of morality
>in textbooks have been ruthlessly hounded from the schools.

There is little to no porography being distribute in our schools.  And the
Supreme Court has rulesd that teaching *any* religion in public schools is
tantamount to the government favoring that religion over others.  If you
can't see that this is a clear violoation of the Constitution, you're not
reading it very well.

>Communist atrocities which have killed more than 150 million all over
>the world are glossed over or ignored, but the most trivial
>international action by the United States brings immediate and forceful
>condemnation.

Oh, that's because we feel a moral responsibility to do the right thing
when meddling in foreign affairs.  Frequently we've screwed up and are
attempting to correct for past mistakes.  (Persian Gulf War, for example).
There are limits to our influence in the world.  WE can't force China to
change policies, they could simply ignore us.  


>RULE FOR REVOLUTION #6:       BANKRUPT THE GOVERNMENT
>THE REALITY:  The United States is flat broke. It is the number one
>debtor nation on earth, with a deficit of more than $5,000,000,000,000
>(five trillion dollars).  Social programs pay for everything from 
>abortion and homosexual-run "sensitivity training sessions" to
>comprehensive sex education. 


funny.  Many economists have been saying that the debt really doesn't
matter.  The entire western world is debt-ridden in the governments, it
hasn't really affected us a heck of a lot.  Sounds like you're objecting
to public money being spent on those things which offend you, while
ignoring the public money spent on things which don't offend you.

>They want us to fund family benefits for sodomites, a comprehensive
>health care plan that will inevitably turn into a Britain-like
>socialized horror, and "art" that is blatantly obscene.

So you don't object to family funded benefits for lesbians?  (Note: I
don't believe they qualify as sodomites even under the wierdest
definitions)  Oh, you also object to all the people who perform oral sex
getting family benefits? doh!

Giving family benefits to all people who are living together, sharing
expenses and loving each other is a truly humane act.  Denying them
because you find their style of life or religion offensive is by far the
more evil act.  those who don't marry under state law because that law
doesn't fit their religious belifs get punished under current laws.
(Unless they work for IBM, Microsoft, The University of Michigan, etc)

>RULE FOR REVOLUTION #7:       DESTROY NATIONAL VALUES
>THE RULE:
>Cause a breakdown of indigenous national values.  Destroy all tradition
>in preparation for the bright dawn of glorious Socialism.  Ridicule
>religion, patriotism, and honesty. The people must be led to have only
>one interest:   Themselves!

Funny.  Whatever happened to Native American beliefs?


>Why should there be any effort to take responsibility for one's own
>faults when "society" is so conveniently ready to take the blame for all
>one's sins? Society has made the sacrifice.   So criminals, addicts,
>alcoholics, child molesters, wife beaters, and others can always blame
>their problems on society.

They don't have a very successful job at it.  Most blame abusive parents,
and get put in jail anyway.


>We have truly become the "me generation."

Whose fault is that?   I notice that now you seem to be for entitlement
programs, or at least helping others.  Make up your mind.



>RULES FOR REVOLUTION #9 AND #10:    UNDERMINE THE ARMED FORCES
>THE REALITY:
>Our country's armed forces consume a vast percentage of our gross
>national product.
>We possess the best and most advanced weapons systems in the world. But
>our armed forces are a joke for two reasons:
>(1) they are completely restrained in their actions by a hostile
>Congress, and

You want the US Military to wander the world picking fights?  Like the
Persian Gulf?  Which was a Bush-administration fuck up in the first place?
A cautious Congress is a much better deal than one that just blindly
authorizes every military action.

Remember the words of our founders (Damit, I forget which one):  Avoid
foreign entaglements.  (Or something to that effect.  I'm braindead and
away from my reference materials right now)

>(2) the armed forces have been saddled with such a bad reputation that
>it is virtually impossible to fill the ranks with volunteers, even in
>the new and streamlined armed services.

New and streamlined?  bloated with intel and officers, low on combat
troops.  And this reputation is as much the military's fault as anything.
I was talking to some active Marines 3 weeks ago.  They all bitched about
it and wished that they hadn't gone in.  One sargeant, One Corporal, and
one Army Sargeant.   

Most of the US has an enormous respect for the military.  We just don't
think we should use this power very often.  We use it too much as it is.

>Servicemen are ridiculed and denigrated at every turn. People say that,
>if you can't make it on the outside, you wind up in the armed forces.

Where do you get this shit?

>Every serviceman is considered to be a useless gobbler of tax money.

umm. no.  We learned that lesson sometime between world war I and World
War II.  I think it was sometime around December 7, personally.


Ryan Anderson - Alpha Geek
PGP fp: 7E 8E C6 54 96 AC D9 57  E4 F8 AE 9C 10 7E 78 C9
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`

At 1:25 PM -0500 11/3/1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>As I wander back through all the posts on this list, it finally dawns on
>me what this is all about, this 'fight censorship' rhetoric.  It's
>nothing more and nothing less than a lot of egotistical, self-serving
>brats who absolutely refuse to grow up, including you, Declan.  Don't
>you realize that YOU are a major reason for the downward spiral of
>society?  Instead of trying to protect children, you want to empower
>them.  Even a moron knows that when you do so, that power has to be
>taken from someone.  Unfortunately, that someone is the parent.  I have
>to ask myself just how many on this list have children.  Not many, I
>would say.

Daughter and two grandchildren.

>Someone on this list, I forget who, has made numerous attempts at
>convincing us that pornography 'does no harm' to children.  It is
>exactly at this point that I must draw a line.  Studies have shown that
>an event which lasts even so much as three-tenths of a second, within
>five to ten minutes has produced a structural change in the brain.
>Exposure to porn causes actual brain damage, especially in a child.

Which studies?  By whom?  Have they been independently verified and are
they accepted within the appropriate medical practice?

In any case, the First Amendment stumbling block you mention is all that
stands between enlightenment and darkness.  Personally, I think the SC is
way out of line determining who's moral values are selected in order to
define any aspect of pornography.  The 'Crowded Theater Test' should be
used for all First Amendment decisions: does excercise of this speech
(e.g., yelling, "Fire") directly endanger a particular individual or
explicitly identified individuals, not some faceless group like our youth.
Sexually explicit material should no more be restricted than other
non-sexual expressions (e.g., media violence or information on the
manufacture and use of explosives.)  Since both are protected and widely
available, so should porn of all types, no limits.

--Steve

Jodi "I'm not *really* a Jew, but I play one on the InterNet" Hoffman 
wrote: 
> TruthMonger wrote:
> <snipped, because Jodi CAN'T HANDLE the TruthMonger>
 
> Monger:
> Feel better?  I certainly hope so.
> By the way...for whatever it's worth:
> #1...I'm Jewish, not a Nazi-loving Christian bitch.
>
> Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp

Jodi,
  As you already know, I have been on extended leave from the world
for some time, having gone to visit my Father, to prepare for taking
over the family business.
  I've been catching up on my reading, in preparation for my return
in the near future, and I came across a book, "The Jesus Principle,"
which claimed that the Christian Coalition and the self-proclaimed
Moral Majority were making plans to launch a secret assault on the
electorate, pushing their hidden agendas while covering up the true
source of their Christian propaganda.
  Naturally, I laughed this off as ridiculous, but I seem to be
encountering more and more evidence of this indeed being the case.

  I am particularly perturbed by those who are doing a very, very
bad job of disguising their true intentions, goals, their hidden 
connections and secret agendas.
  In an increasingly InterNet savy world, no one who is paying
attention is going to miss the fact that your webspace is on
The Christian Interactive Network, which goes to great lengths
to make certain that those who visit their web site are made
aware that the CIN "is a 501 C (3) Nonprofit Ministry", and that
"All donations are tax exempt," so that contribitors can shift
the tax burden to non-Christians while using their own tax-exempt
money to support Christian political agendas under the guise of
religion.

  If you will check the Biblical Archives, I think you will find
that Peter never really fooled anyone, either.
  {Speaking of which, do you also plan to censor the parts of the
   Bible which quote my use of the word, "cock?"}

Love,
 ~JC~
"Yes I _do_ *'love'* the little children." <nod-nod, wink-wink>

Jesus Christ wrote:
> 
> Jodi "I'm not *really* a Jew, but I play one on the InterNet" Hoffman
> wrote:
> > TruthMonger wrote:
> > <snipped, because Jodi CAN'T HANDLE the TruthMonger>
> 
> > Monger:
> > Feel better?  I certainly hope so.
> > By the way...for whatever it's worth:
> > #1...I'm Jewish, not a Nazi-loving Christian bitch.
> >
> > Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp
> 
> Jodi,
>   As you already know, I have been on extended leave from the world
> for some time, having gone to visit my Father, to prepare for taking
> over the family business.
>   I've been catching up on my reading, in preparation for my return
> in the near future, and I came across a book, "The Jesus Principle,"
> which claimed that the Christian Coalition and the self-proclaimed
> Moral Majority were making plans to launch a secret assault on the
> electorate, pushing their hidden agendas while covering up the true
> source of their Christian propaganda.
>   Naturally, I laughed this off as ridiculous, but I seem to be
> encountering more and more evidence of this indeed being the case.
> 
>   I am particularly perturbed by those who are doing a very, very
> bad job of disguising their true intentions, goals, their hidden
> connections and secret agendas.
>   In an increasingly InterNet savy world, no one who is paying
> attention is going to miss the fact that your webspace is on
> The Christian Interactive Network, which goes to great lengths
> to make certain that those who visit their web site are made
> aware that the CIN "is a 501 C (3) Nonprofit Ministry", and that
> "All donations are tax exempt," so that contribitors can shift
> the tax burden to non-Christians while using their own tax-exempt
> money to support Christian political agendas under the guise of
> religion.
> 
>   If you will check the Biblical Archives, I think you will find
> that Peter never really fooled anyone, either.
>   {Speaking of which, do you also plan to censor the parts of the
>    Bible which quote my use of the word, "cock?"}
> 
> Love,
>  ~JC~
> "Yes I _do_ *'love'* the little children." <nod-nod, wink-wink>==============
You're a bright one, aren't you?  
Not that I feel I owe anyone an explanation, but since you took the time 
and trouble to write so damn much.....
CIN donated the webspace.  Another Christian organization arranged for 
someone to build the website and, well, here I am.  
Aside from the fact that I didn't want to have to pay for _anything_, I 
think that was very generous of them, don't you?

Bracing For Your Next Flame...
Jodi
-- 
Jodi Hoffman   R.A.M.P.  http://www.gocin.com/ramp    
Victimization of Children/Research & Education Council of America
1304 SW 160th Avenue, Suite 122  Weston, Florida 33326
Phone: (954) 349-0366   Fax: (954) 349-0361

At 6:01 PM -0700 11/4/97, Lizard wrote:
>At 07:39 PM 11/4/97 -0500, Jodi Hoffman wrote:
>>You're a bright one, aren't you?
>>Not that I feel I owe anyone an explanation, but since you took the time
>>and trouble to write so damn much.....
>>CIN donated the webspace.  Another Christian organization arranged for
>>someone to build the website and, well, here I am.
>>Aside from the fact that I didn't want to have to pay for _anything_, I
>>think that was very generous of them, don't you?
>
>So, allying yourself with people who would gladly force *your* childen to
>pray to *their* God doesn't bother you in the least. Fascinating.

There is no way any proposed laws will force Jewish kids to pray in certain
forms.

(I say this not as a defender of the Christian Right, but in the interests
of truth.)

Due to my advanced age, compared to most of you, I was attending elementary
school in the State of Virginia before the Supreme Court struck down school
prayer (circa 1962). I vaguely recall a kind of prayer at times, which
anyone was free to ignore. Obviously a child will feel social pressures to
conform...but such is life in many ways.

The Jew in our class was specifically exempted from school prayers. Seth
Schrager--I remember his name somehow--was excused from Christian
activities, like building manger scenes and reenacting Christian parables
in school plays. Actually, we didn't _want_ any Christkillers in our school
plays.

Personally, I'd rather see school vouchers, or, even better, a complete
withdrawal of public funding for schools. Let the Zoroastrians send their
kids to whatever school they like...and let them pay the freight.

--Tim May




The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Tim May wrote:

> >So, allying yourself with people who would gladly force *your* childen to
> >pray to *their* God doesn't bother you in the least. Fascinating.
> 
> There is no way any proposed laws will force Jewish kids to pray in certain
> forms.
> 
> (I say this not as a defender of the Christian Right, but in the interests
> of truth.)

> Personally, I'd rather see school vouchers, or, even better, a complete
> withdrawal of public funding for schools. Let the Zoroastrians send their
> kids to whatever school they like...and let them pay the freight.

I believe in separation of church and state.  The state must get out of
things like education and welfare (charity) and other things that are not
their responsibility.

The mistake was when the courts ruled that prayer could not occur in
public (government) schools.  The very next day, every government school
should have been closed down (this would also have shown the court that it
should be careful with its rulings).  And society would not have
experienced as much decay as it has. 

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---

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On Tue, 11 Nov 1997 nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com wrote:

[...]

> I believe in separation of church and state.  The state must get out of
> things like education and welfare (charity) and other things that are not
> their responsibility.

The system of democratic voteing assumes an educated voteing population
because of this free scular education is a basic right that
should be prodided by the state.  

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

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At 9:40 PM -0700 11/14/97, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:

>The system of democratic voteing assumes an educated voteing population
>because of this free scular education is a basic right that
>should be prodided by the state.

The"system" asssumes no such thing, any more than "the system assumes a
non-starving electorate, hence the state should provide meals for all."

Get an education, kid.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, Tim May wrote:

> At 9:40 PM -0700 11/14/97, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:
> 
> >The system of democratic voteing assumes an educated voteing population
> >because of this free scular education is a basic right that
> >should be prodided by the state.
> 
> The"system" asssumes no such thing,

So an informed electorate is not neccery for democarsy to work?  Creating
such an electorate has been one of the fundermentle elerments in most
education policies of westion democries.


- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett

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On Sat, 15 Nov 1997, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:

> On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, Tim May wrote:
> 
> > At 9:40 PM -0700 11/14/97, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:
> > 
> > >The system of democratic voteing assumes an educated voteing population
> > >because of this free scular education is a basic right that
> > >should be prodided by the state.
> > 
> > The"system" asssumes no such thing,
> 
> So an informed electorate is not neccery for democarsy to work?  Creating
> such an electorate has been one of the fundermentle elerments in most
> education policies of westion democries.

The problem is that current government (what everyone usually calls
"public") schools are creating a disinformed electorate.  Most high school
and college students think "From each according to his ability, to each
according to his needs" is in the Constitution.  For the last 30 years,
our free education has degraded to "you get what you pay for".

When we had a public/non-governmental school system (with businessmen
parents on school boards and teachers who viewed their duties as a
vocation instead of just another career) children came out of high school
knowing how to read and write (and diagram sentences), and do mathematics,
and usually several useful arts.  Now they have high self esteem in their
ignorance.

So while education is fundamental to freedom, no where does it say that
government should be the main or only provider of education.  Most other
countries are different since they don't have the same type of church and
state problems (the Church ran the education system for centuries in
some), so simply have subsidized what was there.  In the US, the
Government ensures that no part of religion - including morality and
virtue - can be part of education, so things like diligence in doing
homework are foreign to the system as much as not stabbing your
classmates.  Since it would be judgmental to teach them not to shoot or
stab people, we place metal detectors in schools.

There is also one enlightment era concept implicit in "informed
electorate" I disagree with, and is clear at this point in history.  Many
people would argue that Reason = Virtue, i.e. that all evil comes from
ignorance of some consequence of an act.  Currently, even if I prove that
something won't work because of economic laws, and even show that every
time in the past something bad happened, the answer is usually that we are
smarter (reason), or have better intentions (virtue) this time around. 
Reason is used to rationalize vice (Because of global warming...), and
Virtue is used to rationalize tyranny (gun bans - nice people have no use
for them - for an obvious example).  Reason without virtue only creates
greater evils, and virtue without reason causes more unintentional harm
than intentional good.

Both are necessary for the electorate in a democracy, and our supreme
court says we cannot teach virtue in public school, and the educators have
stopped teaching reason.  So the basic right you argue for is to be
viceous and ignorant via government schooling.  Such an electorate will
remain neither free nor democratic for long.

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On Tue, 18 Nov 1997 nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com wrote:

[...]

> Both are necessary for the electorate in a democracy, and our supreme
> court says we cannot teach virtue in public school, and the educators have
> stopped teaching reason.

You are argueing that the religions have a monopoly on virtue?

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett.  I do not reply to munged addresses.

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On Fri, 21 Nov 1997, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> On Tue, 18 Nov 1997 nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
> > Both are necessary for the electorate in a democracy, and our supreme
> > court says we cannot teach virtue in public school, and the educators have
> > stopped teaching reason.
> 
> You are argueing that the religions have a monopoly on virtue?

No, but I am arguing that purely secular *GOVERNMENT* is incapable of
teaching it, or acting as an example - Normally you must know something or
be able to act out something in order to teach it.  Cypherpunks contains a
constant stream of government not even being hypocritical (the compliment
vice pays to virtue) - they simply act viceous.  If it ever gets something
right it is usually voiced as an unintentional consequence.  I can teach
saying Government is an example of what not to do, but Government itself
cannot do the same.  But even without getting religous I can teach virtue
as a positive instead of a series of negatives.

For example, you can teach virtue based on Aristotle, or even Socrates. 
Or as an objectivist might point out, Ayn Rand.  Although I haven't
attempted to create a curriculum, I have come across many books just in my
economics readings that don't mention God once, but mention various
virtues as such (though not always by that word).  I know someone who is
very far from my Religous beliefs, but otherwise we agree on Libertarian
ideas and the need to instill virtue - he now homeschools his children.

Even my religous view holds that those who don't hold it are exhonerated
or condemned by their own consciences (if properly formed which is a prior
responsibility) [Romans Chapter 1 is the most often cited passage]. 

Thrift (seeking higher quality at lower prices), Delaying Gratification
(e.g. Save instead of buying on credit), Temperance (we do have a drug
problem and we see how government approaches it), Prudence (ditto with
teenage sex) are all Virtues by natural law, and I could number more and
come up with a list that everyone who believe in the concept of virtue
would recognize.  These truths are accessible via reason alone - if people
would let reason reach the conclusion.

Religion is neither sufficient, nor even necessary to teach virtue, and
often fails to teach it.  But in the past it has tended to recognize
virtue and teach it before purely secular institutions.  The French
Revolution was (false) reason without virtue, and purely secular, and
everyone knows the result.  Our founders, including the Deists and
Unitarians all point out that virtue is necessary for liberty and
demonstrate that from reason. 

Within those who identify themselves as "The Religous Right", some I agree
with and some I don't, and within both, some positions are consistent and
reasonable, and some are not.  I tend to ask silly questions like my first
response to this thread ("public" school v.s. "government" schools).  If
they accept the authority of the Bible, I can usually win the argument,
but I have taken the time to develop a Libertarian Theology.  I also argue
that they do damage to their own cause by having government try to do
things which they will fail at and both the left and the right don't like
it when I argue for separation of church and state - but say that the
state should get entirely out of things like education and charity
(welfare and healthcare) because it is none of the state's business - the
churches (and other voluntary organizations) are responsible for these
functions.

--- reply to tzeruch - at - ceddec - dot - com ---

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Fri, 21 Nov 1997 nospam-seesignature@ceddec.com wrote:

[...]

> but say that the
> state should get entirely out of things like education and charity
> (welfare and healthcare) because it is none of the state's business - the
> churches (and other voluntary organizations) are responsible for these
> functions.

I would have to dissagry with you.  If the state has any business, it is
to provide services that the comminaty as a whole needs or services where
the market will not provide.  While churches (and other voluntary
organizations) have there place I do not beleave that it is a universal
solition.

Indeed I have worries about contribution money to an orginisation that I
have little ablity to control via my influence as a voter.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett.  I do not reply to munged addresses.

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On Sun, 23 Nov 1997, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:

> ...  If the state has any business, it is
> to provide services that the comminaty as a whole needs or services where
> the market will not provide.  While churches (and other voluntary
> organizations) have there place I do not beleave that it is a universal
> solition.
> 
> Indeed I have worries about contribution money to an orginisation that I
> have little ablity to control via my influence as a voter.

Then I take it you have almost the exact same worries about contributing 
to churches as you have about "contributing" to government.

Reminds me of a short exchange I had with a co-worker a couple of years 
ago.  He had bought a lottery ticket (which I don't do), and it went like 
this:

I:  What are your chances of winning?
he:  What are *yours*?
I:  Not much different than yours!

______________________________________________________________________
Jon Galt
e-mail:  jongalt@pinn.net
website:  http://www.pinn.net/~jongalt/
PGP public key available on my website.
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner.
______________________________________________________________________

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Sun, 23 Nov 1997, Jon Galt wrote:

> On Sun, 23 Nov 1997, ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} wrote:

[...]

> > Indeed I have worries about contribution money to an orginisation that I
> > have little ablity to control via my influence as a voter.
> 
> Then I take it you have almost the exact same worries about contributing 
> to churches as you have about "contributing" to government.

Basicly yes,  Churchers are more like small goverments of there own,
accountable only to there vision of God (wich will be redifined if it
becomes to difficalt to get away with what thay wish.)

> Reminds me of a short exchange I had with a co-worker a couple of years 
> ago.  He had bought a lottery ticket (which I don't do), and it went like 
> this:
> 
> I:  What are your chances of winning?
> he:  What are *yours*?
> I:  Not much different than yours!

One neet thing about knowing a bit of maths (aprat from the ablity to do
cyrto) is that you clearly know the probilities of winning lotto.

ObDisclamer  I am not crising the idear of relgion or spiritality.  More
the way thay are currently implermented in todays socity.  In otherwords
its not God I have a beef with but the peaple who /say/ that there acting
on His wishes.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett.  I do not reply to munged addresses.

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? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:
>
> > but say that the
> > state should get entirely out of things like education and charity
> > (welfare and healthcare) because it is none of the state's business - the
> > churches (and other voluntary organizations) are responsible for these
> > functions.
>
> I would have to dissagry with you.  If the state has any business, it is
> to provide services that the comminaty as a whole needs or services where
> the market will not provide.  While churches (and other voluntary
> organizations) have there place I do not beleave that it is a universal
> solition.
>
> Indeed I have worries about contribution money to an orginisation that I
> have little ablity to control via my influence as a voter.

Your influence as a voter?  Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!!1!!!

When you contribute voluntarily, you can choose to contribute elsewhere
if you think your contributions are misused (like I use my charitable
deduction to the max, but I don't give to the united way and urge
others not to :-). You don't have a choice about paying taxes to
pay for the horrible public schools / socialized medicine and your
influence as a voter ain't worth shit.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> others not to :-). You don't have a choice about paying taxes to
> pay for the horrible public schools / socialized medicine and your
> influence as a voter ain't worth shit.

Dimitri, some time ago there was a vote on a certain soc.culture.* 
newsgroup.

As you know, the group passed, but if there was one YES vote less than
the number cast, the group would not pass.

That one vote came from you (thank you). Do you think that your influence
in the vote was not worth shit? I think not.

	- Igor.

ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes:

> Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> > others not to :-). You don't have a choice about paying taxes to
> > pay for the horrible public schools / socialized medicine and your
> > influence as a voter ain't worth shit.
>
> Dimitri, some time ago there was a vote on a certain soc.culture.*
> newsgroup.
>
> As you know, the group passed, but if there was one YES vote less than
> the number cast, the group would not pass.
>
> That one vote came from you (thank you). Do you think that your influence
> in the vote was not worth shit? I think not.

Since that time, the news.groups voting process has become even more corrupt.
When the skirvins and the isleys want to pass (or not pass) a newsgroup,
they just make up votes from nonexistant addresses as needed.

I'm sure if it weren't for my YES vote, the UVV would have forged a YES
vote from someone else.  In fact, I have a strong suspicion that the UVV
either made up or discarded some YES votes to make it look like the
proposal passed by a single vote.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

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On Sun, 23 Nov 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:

> ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:

[...]

> > Indeed I have worries about contribution money to an orginisation that I
> > have little ablity to control via my influence as a voter.
> 
> Your influence as a voter?  Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!!1!!!

Recall that .au has a very diffrent voteing system to that of the US.  I
have more political inflence [1] on my politions then the adverage US
voter.

[1] As a tackticly voteing swinger.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett.  I do not reply to munged addresses.

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Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: 
> ? the Platypus {aka David Formosa} <dformosa@st.nepean.uws.edu.au> writes:
> >
> > Indeed I have worries about contribution money to an orginisation that I
> > have little ablity to control via my influence as a voter.
> 
> Your influence as a voter?  Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!!1!!!

A million comedians out of work, and ? has to try to launch a
new career...

Tim May wrote:
>There is no way any proposed laws will force Jewish kids to pray in certain
>forms.
>
>(I say this not as a defender of the Christian Right, but in the interests
>of truth.)
>
>Due to my advanced age, compared to most of you, I was attending elementary
>school in the State of Virginia before the Supreme Court struck down school
>prayer (circa 1962). I vaguely recall a kind of prayer at times, which
>anyone was free to ignore. Obviously a child will feel social pressures to
>conform...but such is life in many ways.
>
>The Jew in our class was specifically exempted from school prayers. Seth
>Schrager--I remember his name somehow--was excused from Christian
>activities, like building manger scenes and reenacting Christian parables
>in school plays. Actually, we didn't _want_ any Christkillers in our school
>plays.
>
>Personally, I'd rather see school vouchers, or, even better, a complete
>withdrawal of public funding for schools. Let the Zoroastrians send their
>kids to whatever school they like...and let them pay the freight.
>
>--Tim May
>
>

Huh? Since when has school prayer had anything to do with religion?
Its about indoctrination. If you force someone to say something day
after day, or even hear it day afterday, after a while it stops
representing a idea, and starts representing a truth. The pledge of
allegiance is a prime example. 

Ask a school age kid "does america have liberty and justice for all?"
and they will quote back without thinking the pledge of allegiance 

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the united states of america
and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under god
indivisible with liberty and justice for all"

Long after they stop forcing you to say it you still remember it. You 
still believe that america is "a nation under god" and has "liberty and
justice for all" whether or not there is any evidence at all to support 
it. That is the beauty of it, there need be no evidence of liberty at 
all just like there is no evidence that terrorists and kiddie porn
collectors are running rampant on the internet. Just like there is no
evidence that the economy is worse than it has ever been. Just like 
there is no evidence that 2/3s of the crime in america is committed by
teenagers.Just like there is no evidence that you have a 50% chance of
being killed when you leave your house. People hear these "facts" day 
after day on tv but are never offered any proof but im sure if you ask most
people "how is the economy" they will say "worse than it has ever been".

Say something 3 times and it becomes true. 

forget my last post about only taxing some churches, tax them all.


--bucky

At 07:39 PM 11/4/97 -0500, Jodi Hoffman wrote:
>You're a bright one, aren't you?  
>Not that I feel I owe anyone an explanation, but since you took the time 
>and trouble to write so damn much.....
>CIN donated the webspace.  Another Christian organization arranged for 
>someone to build the website and, well, here I am.  
>Aside from the fact that I didn't want to have to pay for _anything_, I 
>think that was very generous of them, don't you?

So, allying yourself with people who would gladly force *your* childen to
pray to *their* God doesn't bother you in the least. Fascinating.

I want to make a short comment-
First of all,
most of the Christians I know --in fact all-
dont use this kind of profanity that Jodi is using.
So I would not label her a "religous righter"
All this labeling of RRs and fundamentalists has to stop.
I believe in a fairly  literal interpretation of the bible(Lets not get into that) but--
I dont fit in your jar of fundamentalism and Jodi doesnt fit in mine--
Stereotypes of RRs are inaccurate as a whole.

You guys are preaching Free speech and acceptance and equality-
yet you are guilty of the very sins of hate  which you condemn others of.

:-)

BTW-
I found the mockery of Jesus offensive.

I am looking forward to some more posts on cyber stuff.
Before we got off on this tangent I was learning faster from this list about the net 
and its possibilities than I could ever teach myself.
Thanks!

hayden@phoenix.net wrote:

> I found the mockery of Jesus offensive.

  Me too!

~J H.Fucking. C~
"So they were offended at Him. But Jesus said to them,
<red> 'A prophet is not without honour except in his own
       country and on his own mailing list.' <red> "

Jodi Hoffman wrote:
> 
> TruthMonger wrote:
> <snipped, because it's basically a lot of crap>
> 
> Monger:
> 
> Feel better?  I certainly hope so.
> By the way...for whatever it's worth:
> #1...I'm Jewish, not a Nazi-loving Christian bitch.
> #2...You have no idea who or what I am.
> #3...You hate that I'm right.  I love that.
> 
>
> #1...I'm Jewish, not a Nazi-loving Christian bitch.	I have to assume you were not born Jewish, nor converted to 
Judaism. I have yet to meet a Jew w/ such a fundamentalist Christian view 
of the world. If you were indeed born Jewish, I will apologize ahead of 
time and say only that, your education in yiddishkeit(Jewish life) and 
halakhah(Jewish law) must either have been nonexistant, or Lubavich. I 
suspect you consider yourself jewish because you are a jew for jesus. A 
Christian who has decided to adopt jewish tradition and therefore calls 
themself jewish. I bring these points to your attention:

> "DON'T SACRIFICE MY CHILD
>ON THE ALTAR OF THE FIRST AMENDMENT." Jews have never been advocates of censorship in any form. A Jews were not 
allowed to act, speak, or pray in WWII Germany, they were sent to death 
instead. Jews are not allowed to worship or read the holy books in 
communist countries. The greatest Jewish leaders through out history, 
read and argued dissenting viewpoints, they did not censor them.Even 
today, Jews take responsibility for their own children, they do not ask 
others to do it for them. The more orthodox place their children in 
private schools at their own expense, and teach their children to stay 
away from non-jews, they don't expect everyone else to bend to their 
views. 

I strongly doubt any Jew would choose use a quote from hitler. 

> Christians, clergy, and even Christ Himself
>are held up as objects of scorn Why do you use these terms? Why not Rabbis, teachers, and even the Ten 
Commandments? And the term Christ himself????As far as Jews are 
concerned, Jesus was nothing more than a minor prophet. It is upsetting 
that other religion's icons are held in scorn, but this is because we 
respect other people's belief.

>Homosexuality, abortion, violence, and contempt for all parental and
>governmental authority is the prevailing order of the day. 	Yes homosexuality is forbbidden, however, abortion and 
contraception is NOT! Even for the very orthodox, abortion is ALWAYS 
allowed to save a woman's life and in ANY case rape or incest. Among 
non-orthodox Jews, it is allowed if necessary for the sake of the family, 
or for the mental health of the woman. Even among the most orthodox, 
contraception is allowed after the birth of at least 1 male and 1 female 
child, and the sexual act is considered a mandatory act of mutual 
pelasure!
	I think you would find most Jews believe that contempt for 
parents, and lack of respect for adults is a direct result of upbringing, 
not the media or the internet.Jews teach respect by example, including 
respecting their own children. That, plus a healthy dose of jewish guilt. 
Jewish parents hold their children in such high regard, that there is no 
worse feeling than dissapointing your parents.
	While I don't think Jews as a whole hold the government in 
contepmt, they are among the first to say 'question authority'.Look at 
what has happened to us when we don't!(and sometimes even when we do)

>particularly powerful form of media is represented by the so-called
>"arts community."   Some latter-day "artists" actually make a
>pretty good living by mocking traditional values and Christianity.
>Consider Andres Sorrano's "Piss Christ" (a photograph of a crucifix
>submerged in urine) or Robert Mapplethorp's photos, which include one
>showing a bullwhip protruding out of his rear end.	Many Jews are great patrons of the arts. Art is a cultural 
legacy. If it's trash, don't by it or look at it; don't sponsor a museum 
that exhibits that trash, but censor? Never! Even pornography is 
allowable, it is up to the parents to educate the children on these 
matters.

> But they say not
>a word when it is pointed out that the Bible and all mention of morality
>in textbooks have been ruthlessly hounded from the schools.	It's called the Tanakh(Old Testament) not the bible. Jews have 
always insisted that their children get a Jewish education as well as an 
ecumenical one. from kindergarten on, Jewish children usually spend hours 
each week in hebrew school learning jewish history, law and culture. You 
cannot be b'nai Mitzvoh unles you go through all this. Even someone who 
converts to Judaism, must study until the Rabbi feels the have learned 
enough, before they can b'nai Mitzvah.

>Any individual weakness is treated as a problem of society, not of the
>person, and this relieves everyone of the responsibility of improving
>themselves.	Jews take responsibility not just for themselves but for the 
welfare of society, without any other agenda. The Mitzvah(good deed) is 
one of the top 5 most importanat things about being a jew. It means 
giving simply for the sake of others. Children are shown, very early, how 
good it feels to do a mitzvah, and all jews are encouraged to do a 
mitzvah a day. They don't blame  problems on society(as you seem to), nor 
do they expect the government to fix the problem(as you seem to). The 
best way to solve these problems is to offer help freely to resolve the 
problem, Not find a way to place blame(as you seem to). Is pornography 
really the problem, or is it that our youth are out of control and lack 
leadership and role models? Banning dirty words will not keep children 
from learning them. Teaching children how people use them and why they 
are innapropriate will. Teaching "bible" at school will not instill 
morality, teaching by example will. 
 
>#2...You have no idea who or what I am.	We have learned enough about you, through your messages here and 
you web site, to draw rather strong conclusions.

> #3...You hate that I'm right.  I love that. 	I intensely dislike your views, I don't hate anyone. I feel sorry 
for you, that your lack of education has left you vulnerable to the 
pseudo-science that you quote. It is obvious that you have never had a 
course in statistics, politics and government, sociology, science, ot 
research methods, to name a few. Jewish culture AND religion take great 
pride in holding education as one of the primary foundations of being a 
Jew!

Jew prize knowledge and education. Ideas are things to be nurtured and 
grown, books are things to be cherished and absorbed.The idea of 
censorship is an anathema to the entire culture.

If you were Jewish you would know at least some of this. It makes you and 
your arguments even less credible when you portray yourself as something 
you're not. Let's at least have a little honesty here even if we 
completely disagree on the censorship issue. Khlallah: gey en dregk


Men roybt undz dos lebn un recht             
                                          
Derfar vayl mir emes farlangen

Frayhayt, far bafrayt

They steal our lives and our rights,
because of our true desire,
freedom, freedom for everyone    

(from"tortured to death in captivity")
G.A.Machtet, poet
dedicated to student revolutionaries
-- 
Channah beyt Yehudit 
holovacs@idt.net