Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)

> At 10:37 PM -0700 11/12/97, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
> >There are RC4 sourcecode in ftp.replay.com.
> >but, Is it  same RC4 developed RSADSI ?
> >
> 
> It am developed.
> 
> You go back where you came. You go back hotmail. We tired your stupid
> questions on RC4 and your Misty posts.
> 
> Sayonara!
> 
> (And they wonder why we kicked Japan's butt.)
> 
> --Tim May

This illustrates what a liability the poster has become to the cypherpunks.
The group is becoming just another militia front, identified with racism
and white supremacy, applauding violent murder of government agents,
one step from applauding the Oklahoma killings.  Its original purpose
all but forgotten, the list has died, poisoned by the hatred flowing from
its leader.

At 9:42 AM -0700 11/13/97, Anonymous wrote:

>This illustrates what a liability the poster has become to the cypherpunks.
>The group is becoming just another militia front, identified with racism
>and white supremacy, applauding violent murder of government agents,
>one step from applauding the Oklahoma killings.  Its original purpose
>all but forgotten, the list has died, poisoned by the hatred flowing from
>its leader.

If you don't like my views, use your filters.

Or set up Yet Another Personal List (like those set up by Perry, Lewis,
Declan, Bob, Nick, and others). Then you can exclude me from your YAPL. The
Cypherpunks list is, unlike these YAPLs, uncensored, unfiltered at the
source, and open to any and all subscribers.

I call em as I see em when it comes to our Japanese (in name, as he may
actually not be Japanese, given his "hotmail" account) who sends us his
"send me money I send you Misty code" crap.

--Tim May



The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <42ca13f9d34086b1b366bbfe8ab5e9da@anon.efga.org>, on 11/13/97 
   at 11:42 AM, Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org> said:

>> At 10:37 PM -0700 11/12/97, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
>> >There are RC4 sourcecode in ftp.replay.com.
>> >but, Is it  same RC4 developed RSADSI ?
>> >
>> 
>> It am developed.
>> 
>> You go back where you came. You go back hotmail. We tired your stupid
>> questions on RC4 and your Misty posts.
>> 
>> Sayonara!
>> 
>> (And they wonder why we kicked Japan's butt.)
>> 
>> --Tim May

>This illustrates what a liability the poster has become to the
>cypherpunks. The group is becoming just another militia front, identified
>with racism and white supremacy, applauding violent murder of government
>agents, one step from applauding the Oklahoma killings.  Its original
>purpose all but forgotten, the list has died, poisoned by the hatred
>flowing from its leader.

Leader?!? Leader what leader??? ROTFLMAO!!!!

If any group was absent of "leadership" this is it. Finding a leader of
anarchists is like trying to find truth in DC.

FWIW: ol' Harry should have droped a couple more *after* their surrender
for good measure.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
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Anonymous wrote: 
> > At 10:37 PM -0700 11/12/97, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
> > >There are RC4 sourcecode in ftp.replay.com.
> > >but, Is it  same RC4 developed RSADSI ?

> > You go back where you came. You go back hotmail. We tired your stupid
> > questions on RC4 and your Misty posts.

> > (And they wonder why we kicked Japan's butt.)
> >
> > --Tim May
 
> This illustrates what a liability the poster has become to the cypherpunks.

  Hey, pal. If you're going to attack Tim May on this list, you'd better
be ready to back it up with some ASCII Art graphics.

> The group is becoming just another militia front, identified with racism
> and white supremacy

  I tried to tell my fellow CypherPunks that it was a mistake to 
include that racist, white supremacist cypherpunks-j list in with 
the other CDR lists, but they still let those slant-eyed white
supremacists join our Mary band, skirts and all.

> applauding violent murder of government agents

  As opposed to promoting the wearing of "Shoot Me First!" T-shirts
to bed, in support of no-knock, black-clad government Ninja's?

> one step from applauding the Oklahoma killings.  

  You must have had your hands over your ears if you missed the
cheering, whistling, hooting and cat-calls by _some_ of the
list subscribers over the OKC wake-up call issued by some unknown
person, in response to the government slaughter of men, women and
children at Waco.

> Its original purpose all but forgotten, 

  I believe that the original purpose of the list was to piss off
people such as yourself. I imagine that individual list subscribers
all have their own concept of what the "original purpose" of the
list was, even if they only subscribed yesterday, like yourself.

> the list has died, poisoned by the hatred flowing from its leader.

  Sure, change the subject and attack _me_, now! (Did I forget to
announce the results of the vote taken last night at the Coal Dust
Saloon in Bienfait, Saskatchewan?)

EgoisticPretentiousSelfPromotingAssholeMonger

Anonymous wrote: 
> > At 10:37 PM -0700 11/12/97, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
> > >There are RC4 sourcecode in ftp.replay.com.
> > >but, Is it  same RC4 developed RSADSI ?

> > It am developed.

> The group is becoming just another militia front, identified with racism
> and white supremacy, applauding violent murder of government agents

I *rove* this rist!

Banzai,
  Lolbelt

At 15:39 97/11/13 -0600, TruthMonger wrote:

>   I tried to tell my fellow CypherPunks that it was a mistake to 
> include that racist, white supremacist cypherpunks-j list in with 
> the other CDR lists, but they still let those slant-eyed white
> supremacists join our Mary band, skirts and all.

Actually, cypherpunks-j is not connected to the CDR lists.
I have made a local distribution of the cypherpunks list
called cypherpunks-e, but there currently only 2 subscribers.
I wonder why... ;-P

Cypherpunks-j and the meetings in Tokyo are focused more on
writing code and less on stroking and beating each other.

We were going to call the list something else, but Eric Hughes
attended one of our meetings and convinced us to call ourselves
cypherpunks... maybe that was a stupid decision.

But, I suppose chaos is good. For you and for us. It's always
nice to be reminded that racisms in the US is still alive
and active. Sometime I forget and almost identify with you
folks.

Oh and by the way:

Article 21 of the Constitution of Japan

Freedom of assembly and association as well as speech, press
and all other forms of expression are guaranteed.
2) No censorship shall be maintained, nor shall the secrecy of
any means of communication be violated. 

"nya nya na nya nya..."

 - Joi


--
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PGP Fingerprint: 58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18  6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1
Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe@ji.to

> This illustrates what a liability the poster has become to the cypherpunks.
> The group is becoming just another militia front, identified with racism
> and white supremacy, applauding violent murder of government agents,
> one step from applauding the Oklahoma killings.  Its original purpose
> all but forgotten, the list has died, poisoned by the hatred flowing from
> its leader.

At the risk of responding to a post which has a good probability of being 
a troll I will at least say that the above opinion may be that of several 
members, but the fact is the list has evolved, it never had an original 
defined purpose, at least not one easily put into words, and applauding 
murder of government agents is a part of the whole strong crypto privacy 
and liberty ethic. As for white supremacy, look elsewhere, I think you`ll 
find Tim`s post an example of what the developed world knows as humour, 
not a serious attack on any ethnic group.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"

At 12:22 97/11/14 -0700, Tim May wrote:

> I'm actually delighted the Joichi Ito has, on the basis of my humor,
> denounced me as a racist.  As a member of a "mongrelized society," as one
> prominent Japanese put it a while back (and not back in the 1940s...it was
> the 1980s), I am always happy to be called a racist by someone from one of
> the most racially homogeneous nations on earth, a nation which of course
> did not allow any "boat people" to settle in their nation, all the while
> denouncing the U.S. for letting only several hundred thousand boat people
> in.

I'm not going to defend Japan on this one. Japan is a rascist society.
Does that make it OK for you to be one too?

> The history of our "Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011@hotmail.com> is apparently
> unknown to Joichi Ito, else he would not have been so quick to brand me a
> racist for my humor.

I'm sorry, but a racial remark is a racial remark. I never said it wasn't
funny and I never said this guy didn't deserve it. But what you said
was racist, no doubt about it, and even if they are funny, I personally
think that racial jokes are stupid and cheap.

On and by the way, I actually didn't think your message was very funny,
and I don't see how you can argue that I shouldn't brand you a rascist
just because you thought you were funny and the guy deserved it.

 - Joi


--
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PGP Fingerprint: 58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18  6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1
Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe@ji.to

At 18:16 97/11/14 -0700, Tim May wrote:

> And where was there any mention of "race"? If a Chinese person made the
> same joke about Nakatuji-san's "You send money, I send Misty" nonsense,

At 22:10 97/11/12 -0700, Tim May wrote:
> It am developed.
> 
> You go back where you came. You go back hotmail. We tired your stupid
> questions on RC4 and your Misty posts.
> 
> Sayonara!
> 
> (And they wonder why we kicked Japan's butt.)

No, you didn't mention "race". Why don't you look up racist in the
dictionary.

> I really don't care if you found it funny or not.

And I don't care that you don't care. ;-P

- Joi

P.S. One famous cypherpunk once told me, "Never corner a Tim May."
Maybe I better stop...

--
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PGP Fingerprint: 58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18  6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1
Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe@ji.to

At 7:17 AM -0700 11/14/97, Paul Bradley wrote:

>and liberty ethic. As for white supremacy, look elsewhere, I think you`ll
>find Tim`s post an example of what the developed world knows as humour,
>not a serious attack on any ethnic group.

Just so.

I'm actually delighted the Joichi Ito has, on the basis of my humor,
denounced me as a racist.  As a member of a "mongrelized society," as one
prominent Japanese put it a while back (and not back in the 1940s...it was
the 1980s), I am always happy to be called a racist by someone from one of
the most racially homogeneous nations on earth, a nation which of course
did not allow any "boat people" to settle in their nation, all the while
denouncing the U.S. for letting only several hundred thousand boat people
in.

The history of our "Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011@hotmail.com> is apparently
unknown to Joichi Ito, else he would not have been so quick to brand me a
racist for my humor.

I'm not even sure Nobuki Nakatuji is even an actual Japanese, given his
hotmail.com account and his stereotypically
Japanese-trying-to-write-English skills. It may just be a troll. Or a
get-rich-quick scheme.

I've probably deleted most of this Nakatuji guy's posts, but I did manage
to find a dozen or so. Here are some excerpts for those who have forgotten
what he has written. (Oh, and he seems to never engage in any discussions,
never responding substantively to anything people say to him. I suspect a
bot at work.)

---

From: "Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011@hotmail.com>
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Please show me these encryption algorithms
Date: Fri, 05 Sep 1997 21:09:06 PDT


Does anybody know RC4,RC2,CDMF,MISTY,MULTI2 encryption algorithms?
If you know these encryption algorithms,
Please show me these encryption algorithms.

---

From: "Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011@hotmail.com>
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: GAO's Chaos Cryptosystem Algorithms
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 19:15:21 PDT

Do you want Gao's chaos cryptosytem's thesis
written in English ?
If you want it,Please send check or money order
of 50 dollar to me.

---

From: "Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011@hotmail.com>
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: MITSUBISHI MISTY algorithm
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 21:30:40 PDT

Does anybody know MITSUBISHI MISTY algorithm ?
If you know it,Please send e-mail to me.

---

From: "Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011@hotmail.com>
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: MISTY algorithm
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 20:00:20 PDT

Does anybody want MISTY algorithm ?
If you want it,Please send e-mail to me.

---

From: "Nobuki Nakatuji" <bd1011@hotmail.com>
To: cypherpunks@toad.com
Subject: Where are another cypherpunk
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 21:18:23 PDT

Where are another cypherpunk mailinglist ?

Tim May wrote:

> Just so.
> 
> I'm actually delighted the Joichi Ito has, on the basis of my humor,
> denounced me as a racist.

Dimitri's humor is more humorous, anyway.

nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) writes:

> Tim May wrote:
>
> > Just so.
> >
> > I'm actually delighted the Joichi Ito has, on the basis of my humor,
> > denounced me as a racist.
>
> Dimitri's humor is more humorous, anyway.

Timmy's not funny.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

At 6:47 PM -0700 11/14/97, Joichi Ito wrote:

>I'm sorry, but a racial remark is a racial remark. I never said it wasn't
>funny and I never said this guy didn't deserve it. But what you said
>was racist, no doubt about it, and even if they are funny, I personally
>think that racial jokes are stupid and cheap.

And where was there any mention of "race"? If a Chinese person made the
same joke about Nakatuji-san's "You send money, I send Misty" nonsense,
would this be "racist" (or "racialist," in your parlance)? How about if a
Pole made the same joke about a Ukrainian, or a Swede, or a German?


>On and by the way, I actually didn't think your message was very funny,
>and I don't see how you can argue that I shouldn't brand you a rascist
>just because you thought you were funny and the guy deserved it.
>
> - Joi

I really don't care if you found it funny or not.

--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

On Fri, Nov 14, 1997 at 02:17:12PM +0000, Paul Bradley wrote:
> 
> > This illustrates what a liability the poster has become to the cypherpunks.
> > The group is becoming just another militia front, identified with racism
> > and white supremacy, applauding violent murder of government agents,
> > one step from applauding the Oklahoma killings.  Its original purpose
> > all but forgotten, the list has died, poisoned by the hatred flowing from
> > its leader.
> 
> At the risk of responding to a post which has a good probability of being 
> a troll I will at least say that the above opinion may be that of several 
> members, but the fact is the list has evolved, it never had an original 
> defined purpose, at least not one easily put into words, and applauding 
> murder of government agents is a part of the whole strong crypto privacy 
> and liberty ethic.

Bullshit.  Applauding murder has nothing to do with strong crypto 
privacy or liberty.

> As for white supremacy, look elsewhere, I think you`ll 
> find Tim`s post an example of what the developed world knows as humour, 
> not a serious attack on any ethnic group.

Tim's post is an example of what the RACIST world knows as humor, 
Paul.  Racism isn't an intellectual phenomenon, it is a gut 
phenomenon.  Frequently it manifests itself in humor.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html

> > At the risk of responding to a post which has a good probability of being 
> > a troll I will at least say that the above opinion may be that of several 
> > members, but the fact is the list has evolved, it never had an original 
> > defined purpose, at least not one easily put into words, and applauding 
> > murder of government agents is a part of the whole strong crypto privacy 
> > and liberty ethic.
> 
> Bullshit.  Applauding murder has nothing to do with strong crypto 
> privacy or liberty.

Yes it does, if one has a strong moral sense about things like individual 
rights and privacy, and the government attempt to deny the people these 
rights, the government have commited a great wrong, it is only to be 
expected that the natural response is to encourage their removal. I find 
it amazing how many people support the punishment of murderers and 
kidnappers in society at large, but exempt from this the particular group 
of people composing the government.

> > As for white supremacy, look elsewhere, I think you`ll 
> > find Tim`s post an example of what the developed world knows as humour, 
> > not a serious attack on any ethnic group.
> 
> Tim's post is an example of what the RACIST world knows as humor, 
> Paul.  Racism isn't an intellectual phenomenon, it is a gut 
> phenomenon.  Frequently it manifests itself in humor.

Oversensitivity, plain and simple, I find some racist jokes funny, I am 
not racist.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"

On Fri, Nov 14, 1997 at 12:22:43PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> At 7:17 AM -0700 11/14/97, Paul Bradley wrote:
> 
> >and liberty ethic. As for white supremacy, look elsewhere, I think you`ll
> >find Tim`s post an example of what the developed world knows as humour,
> >not a serious attack on any ethnic group.
> 
> Just so.

Not so.  Tim is clearly a racist.

> I'm actually delighted the Joichi Ito has, on the basis of my humor,
> denounced me as a racist.  As a member of a "mongrelized society," as one
> prominent Japanese put it a while back (and not back in the 1940s...it was
> the 1980s), I am always happy to be called a racist by someone from one of
> the most racially homogeneous nations on earth, a nation which of course
> did not allow any "boat people" to settle in their nation, all the while
> denouncing the U.S. for letting only several hundred thousand boat people
> in.

Translation:  Don't look at me, look at those dirty racist japs.

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html

> > >and liberty ethic. As for white supremacy, look elsewhere, I think you`ll
> > >find Tim`s post an example of what the developed world knows as humour,
> > >not a serious attack on any ethnic group.
> > 
> > Just so.
> 
> Not so.  Tim is clearly a racist.

I do wish members of a list where I would expect the IQ and education of 
the people who post often to be higher than average would see through 
this politically correct BS, there is a difference between penning a 
mildly insulting humorous note to an idiot on a mailing list and being a 
card-carrying white supremacist. 

Nothing more to it...

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"

Kent Crispin wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 14, 1997 at 12:22:43PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> > At 7:17 AM -0700 11/14/97, Paul Bradley wrote:

> > >and liberty ethic. As for white supremacy, look elsewhere, I think you`ll
> > >find Tim`s post an example of what the developed world knows as humour,
> > >not a serious attack on any ethnic group.
> >
> > Just so.
 
> Not so.  Tim is clearly a racist.

Jesus H. Fucking Christ!
I'm beginning to doubt if anyone participating in this thread knows
what the fuck racism even is...or what humor is, either, for that
matter.
  Racism is a bunch of idiots who think that pissing on someone who
_may_ be of a differnet ethinic origin, in a pissing contest, is racism.
  Humor is listening to you idiots piss all over each other while
Nonookie Masturbatshi, or whatever the fuck Hoshito Hotmail's alias is,
sits back pulling his or her pud (I noticed all you sexists assume
the anonymous poster is a 'male') laughing like a banshee.

  I wish I had a dime for every dipshit who has given me crap over the
years treating [your politically correct word for 'colored folks' here]
and [your politically correct word for 'cripples' here] like everyone
else, instead of bending over backwards to treat them 'special' by
kissing their ass, or pretending they aren't different from me.
  Well, when a spic, nigger, wop, kike, raghead, slant or wagon burner
is broken down on the side of the road on a dark and stormy night, I'm
the fucking one out there getting cold and wet helping them out, while
all of the politically correct types lock their doors while driving
by at 60 mph.

  I put out Country Porno albums that are sexist, racist, and contain
plenty of violence and obscenity. I've sold them to both sexes, all
races, pacifists and anal-retentives. I've sang "There's no niggers
left in Oakland, babe, and all my lies are true." for 2,000 midnight
black people in Nairobi, Kenya, and for the crowd passing the bottle
around in front of the Greyhound station in the heart of Oakland.
I've sung "Butt-fuck me Jesus, through the bedposts of life." in the
heart of the Bible Belt, and "I ate my dog last night." to a roomful
of Vietnamese. And I usually get standing ovations, except when the
boys and girls down at the Greyhound station aren't in any condition
to stand.
  I played up on White Bear Reserve a few weeks back, and when my fans
asked me how I liked their reservation, I told them it was real nice,
but that there were too fucking many Indians there. I'm sure if there
was some round-eyed, foreign-devil white-bread asshole listening in,
I would have gotten a lecture on racism.

  What the fuck is wrong with the dweebs who have nothing better to
do than run around trying to make political hay (and big bucks)
whining about Cleveland Indian fans doing the tomahawk-chop, and
Mr. Magoo knocking stuff over?
  I knew the guy in New York who started the campaign to clothe
horses and other animals so that their dicks were covered. He thought
it was a hoot, but he had people that were ready to kill for the
cause. I can hardly wait until we are all subject to imprisonment
for calling ducks web-footed, instead of 'digitaly enjoined,' or some
such crapola.

  Why the fuck is everybody on the list fighting Masturbatshi's battles
for him when she doesn't seem to feel the need to do so itself?
  NEWS FLASH!!!
  You're all fighting your own inner demons. I didn't hear Nonooke
crying out for your help.

  "In reality, we talk only to ourselves, but sometimes we talk loud
enough that others may hear us."
- Kahil Gibran

  I've smoked crack with blacks, niggers and black-afro americans. When
I talk loud enough for them to hear me, I try to be courteous enough to
fit my choice of words to the environment and/or their preference. 
Except when I'm having a bad no-hair between my teeth day.

  I used to play in Austin with a Japanese kid who did Hank Williams
songs and I laughed my ass off at him. When I sang "I got a feering
carred the bruise." in a Vietnamese karokee bar, everyone laughed 
their ass off at me.
  MAJOR HINT: "We're here for a good time, not a long time, so have a
good time, the sun doesn't shine every day."

  I may be wearing oversized shoes and have a red bulb on my nose, but
you fuckers are hilarious.

TruthMonger,
Former President,
   Pearl Harbor Computers
"We've been bombed since 1941."

On Sat, Nov 15, 1997 at 03:30:11AM -0600, TruthMonger wrote:
> Kent Crispin wrote:
> > On Fri, Nov 14, 1997 at 12:22:43PM -0700, Tim May wrote:
> > > At 7:17 AM -0700 11/14/97, Paul Bradley wrote:
> 
> > > >and liberty ethic. As for white supremacy, look elsewhere, I think you`ll
> > > >find Tim`s post an example of what the developed world knows as humour,
> > > >not a serious attack on any ethnic group.
> > >
> > > Just so.
>  
> > Not so.  Tim is clearly a racist.
> 
> Jesus H. Fucking Christ!
> I'm beginning to doubt if anyone participating in this thread knows
> what the fuck racism even is...or what humor is, either, for that
> matter.
>   Racism is a bunch of idiots who think that pissing on someone who
> _may_ be of a differnet ethinic origin, in a pissing contest, is racism.

No.  Using ethnic characteristics as a criteria for attaching
emotional labels is racism.  If you have a gut level dislike of
Japanese (blacks, jews, etc), because they are Japanese (blacks, jews,
etc), that's racism.  

Of course, I grant you that on a mailing list it isn't possible to
know whether the human Tim May is "really" a racist, so it would have
been more accurate to say that the persona "Tim" on this mailing list
is clearly racist.  However, the usage is common.  And also granted 
that the overwhelming thrust of Tim's writings are negative, so his 
racist comments are almost lost in the noise.

[...]

>   Well, when a spic, nigger, wop, kike, raghead, slant or wagon burner
> is broken down on the side of the road on a dark and stormy night, I'm
> the fucking one out there getting cold and wet helping them out, while
> all of the politically correct types lock their doors while driving
> by at 60 mph.

And Tim would be right beside you,  helping out.  Right... 

[...]

>   I've smoked crack with blacks, niggers and black-afro americans. When
> I talk loud enough for them to hear me, I try to be courteous enough to
> fit my choice of words to the environment and/or their preference. 

courtesy = censorship

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html

Kent Crispin wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 15, 1997 at 03:30:11AM -0600, TruthMonger wrote:
> > I'm beginning to doubt if anyone participating in this thread knows
> > what the fuck racism even is...or what humor is, either, for that
> > matter.
> >   Racism is a bunch of idiots who think that pissing on someone who
> > _may_ be of a differnet ethinic origin, in a pissing contest, is racism.
 
> No.  Using ethnic characteristics as a criteria for attaching
> emotional labels is racism.  

  Double-No! It is a damn fine way of pissing in someone's boot when
that is your purpose, and it is really nobody's business but the
pisser and the pissee (not even those who wear the same brand of
boots).
  Why didn't Eddie Murphy say, "I'm your worst nightmare...a Black-Afro
American with a gun!"? Could it be that the character he was playing
was the type of person who recognized the difference between a tea
party and a bar fight?
  (Kent, are you the one sending anonyous emails to whitehouse.gov
   saying, "Throw rocks at DC!"?)

> Of course, I grant you that on a mailing list it isn't possible to
> know whether the human Tim May is "really" a racist, so it would have
> been more accurate to say that the persona "Tim" on this mailing list
> is clearly racist.  However, the usage is common.  And also granted
> that the overwhelming thrust of Tim's writings are negative, so his
> racist comments are almost lost in the noise.

  Thanks for clearing that up. It would be a shame to 'inaccurately'
flame someone on this list. It takes longer to fill their boots up
if you are not quite on the mark.

> [...]
> 
> >   Well, when a spic, nigger, wop, kike, raghead, slant or wagon burner
> > is broken down on the side of the road on a dark and stormy night, I'm
> > the fucking one out there getting cold and wet helping them out, while
> > all of the politically correct types lock their doors while driving
> > by at 60 mph.
> 
> And Tim would be right beside you, helping out.  Right...

  Sure, if they were headed 'out of town' instead of 'toward' town...

  Really, Kent, you surely can't have lived such a cloistered life that
you judge everything in life by the words and images cast upon the 
Silver Screen of alleged reality.
  In my younger days I used to get picked up by dirt-farmers while
hitchiking, and be subjected to a predictable lecture about long
hair, hippies all ought to get a job, kids today...blah, blah.
Most of the time, before dropping me off, the farmer would dig
a few bucks out of his pocket and offer it to me, saying, "Have
you eaten today? Here, take this."

> [...]
> >   I've smoked crack with blacks, niggers and black-afro americans. When
> > I talk loud enough for them to hear me, I try to be courteous enough to
> > fit my choice of words to the environment and/or their preference.
 
> courtesy = censorship

Courtesy = free choice of words = honest self-censorship
Politcially Correct Politeness = Mandatory/voluntary self-censorship

NEWS FLASH!!!
  Once you grow up and move away from home, then many things that were
formerly mandatory (or else!) become voluntary. People who were easy
to toilet train often go through life thinking that they are 'good'
people just because they still haven't figured out that they have
a 'choice' of how to speak, act, behave.  
  I'll take a good old redneck who has learned not to 'hate niggers'
as much as he used to, over an anal retentive batik artist who 
still hasn't figured out that he clenches his teeth when he speaks
of the 'Black-Afro American' who robbed and pistol-whipped him.

  When Adam Back agrees with me, he's British. When he disagrees with
me, he's a fucking Limey. (And it doesn't matter a shit whether he
is white, black, yellow or green.)

  The best way to eliminate racism is to hire a racist, go to dinner
with a racist, talk with a racist--not to sit drinking cafe latte 
with your friends while denouncing racism.
  I find it hard to believe that the slants and the round-eyes on
this list think that apparent differences in the backgrounds and
beliefs of list members deserves more discussion than the loss of
our common freedoms, just because some Anonymous shit-disturber
(who may also be Nonookie Masturbatshi, for all we know) wants
to impress Bob Hettinga in the hopes of being able to put his
dick in A Body Orfice To Be Named Later at some point in the
future (or already has, at some point in the past).

  In the course of pursuing things which are important in our life
(such as producing the Nutly News), we will be much more productive
if we refrain from joining in mouth-jerk reactions to the worms
that get dangled in front of us by the anonymous entities posting
from the boat above us.

  And the way this relates to crypto is...NONE OF YOUR FUCKING
BUSINESS! (<--- Topically Incorrect)

TruthMonger

On Sat, Nov 15, 1997 at 06:21:50PM -0600, TruthMonger wrote:
[accuses me of not knowing humor]
>   (Kent, are you the one sending anonyous emails to whitehouse.gov
>    saying, "Throw rocks at DC!"?)

No.  But here's a joke:

    The pope and President Clinton died on the same day, but due to an
    administrative foul up, Clinton was sent to heaven and the Pope
    was sent to hell. 

    The Pope explained the situation to the devil, he checked out all
    of the paperwork, and the error was acknowledged.  The Pope was
    told, however, that it would take about 24 hours to fix the
    problem and correct the error. 

    The next day, the Pope was called in and the devil said his
    good-bye as he went off to heaven. 

    On his way up, he met Clinton who was on his way down, and they
    stop to chat. 

    Pope: Sorry about the mix up. 

    President Clinton: No problem. 
          
    Pope: Well, I'm really excited about going to heaven. 

    President Clinton: Why's that?

    Pope: All my life I've wanted to meet the Virgin Mary. 

    President Clinton: You're a day late. 

[...]

>   Really, Kent, you surely can't have lived such a cloistered life that
> you judge everything in life by the words and images cast upon the 
> Silver Screen of alleged reality.

I don't think anyone who knows me would say I have lived a cloistered 
life.  "Checkered" is the word that comes to mind.  Though I've been pretty 
stable the last 20 years. :-)

>   In my younger days I used to get picked up by dirt-farmers while
> hitchiking, and be subjected to a predictable lecture about long
> hair, hippies all ought to get a job, kids today...blah, blah.
> Most of the time, before dropping me off, the farmer would dig
> a few bucks out of his pocket and offer it to me, saying, "Have
> you eaten today? Here, take this."

My youth was similar.  But now the tables have turned, eh? Last
Tuesday I was coming home from a doctors appt., and saw a guy 
standing at a light with a sign "Homeless -- will work for food".  It 
was getting dark; I happened to have a $10 bill handy, so I rolled 
down my window and gave it to him -- just another bleeding heart 
liberal, I guess.  But I didn't give him a lecture.

> > >   I've smoked crack with blacks, niggers and black-afro americans. When
> > > I talk loud enough for them to hear me, I try to be courteous enough to
> > > fit my choice of words to the environment and/or their preference.
>  
> > courtesy = censorship
> 
> Courtesy = free choice of words = honest self-censorship
> Politcially Correct Politeness = Mandatory/voluntary self-censorship

I just tossed that out to think about.  The relationship between 
courtesy and censorship is pretty subtle.


> NEWS FLASH!!!
>   Once you grow up and move away from home, then many things that were
> formerly mandatory (or else!) become voluntary. People who were easy
> to toilet train often go through life thinking that they are 'good'
> people just because they still haven't figured out that they have
> a 'choice' of how to speak, act, behave.  
>   I'll take a good old redneck who has learned not to 'hate niggers'
> as much as he used to, over an anal retentive batik artist who 
> still hasn't figured out that he clenches his teeth when he speaks
> of the 'Black-Afro American' who robbed and pistol-whipped him.

Hmm -- I've been robbed at gunpoint 3 times, pistol-whipped once.  The
perpetrators were all minorities; none were ever caught.  Possessing a
gun at the time wouldn't have made a positive difference in any of the
cases, incidentally.  (I own several guns; I am quite familiar with
guns; I no longer really have a use for them, though.)

I don't clench my teeth over it.  But racism does get under my skin,
in a very personal way. 

[...]

>   The best way to eliminate racism is to hire a racist, go to dinner
> with a racist, talk with a racist--not to sit drinking cafe latte 
> with your friends while denouncing racism.

Hardly an exhaustive list of options.

>   I find it hard to believe that the slants and the round-eyes on
> this list think that apparent differences in the backgrounds and
> beliefs of list members deserves more discussion than the loss of
> our common freedoms,

It's because there are enough people on the list who see a distinction
between preservation of freedom, and hate and fear mongering.  Even
more, I think that many feel that the hate and fear mongering is
actually contrary to the goal of preserving freedom. 

[...]

>   In the course of pursuing things which are important in our life
> (such as producing the Nutly News), we will be much more productive
> if we refrain from joining in mouth-jerk reactions to the worms
> that get dangled in front of us by the anonymous entities posting
> from the boat above us.

Right.  I never pay attention to anonymous entities.

>   And the way this relates to crypto is...NONE OF YOUR FUCKING
> BUSINESS! (<--- Topically Incorrect)
> 
> TruthMonger

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html