Re: Tim May's offensive racism (was: about RC4)

Tim May <tcmay@got.net> wrote:

> At 10:37 PM -0700 11/12/97, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
> >There are RC4 sourcecode in ftp.replay.com.
> >but, Is it  same RC4 developed RSADSI ?
> >
> 
> It am developed.
> 
> You go back where you came. You go back hotmail. We tired your stupid
> questions on RC4 and your Misty posts.
> 
> Sayonara!
> 
> (And they wonder why we kicked Japan's butt.)


Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> writes:

> As for white supremacy, look elsewhere, I think you`ll 
> find Tim`s post an example of what the developed world knows as humour, 
> not a serious attack on any ethnic group.

Tim May's post seems funny to you?  Not a racist comment?

His imitation of a Japanese accent is purely offensive.  Paul, would
you feel comfortable offering this kind of "humor" in a gathering which
included Japanese visitors, perhaps potential customers?  That comment
about kicking Japan's butt would really be humorous, wouldn't it?

It is astonishing that people like you and William Geiger, who apparently
make their living as consultants, feel so comfortable publicly approving
racist comments directed against the Japanese.  Does William expect ever
to work with a Japanese customer, after suggesting that Truman should
have dropped additional atomic bombs on Japan?

Even if you share Tim May's lack of moral constraint, you presumably do
not also share his wealth.  Pragmatic considerations alone should make
you reluctant to be an apologist for racist comments, or in William's
case to compound the error with shockingly offensive remarks of his own.

On Sat, Nov 15, 1997 at 02:38:48PM +0000, Paul Bradley wrote:
> 
> > > find Tim`s post an example of what the developed world knows as humour, 
> > > not a serious attack on any ethnic group.
> > 
> > Tim May's post seems funny to you?  Not a racist comment?
> 
> It seems like something which has been blown out of all proportion by a 
> few over-zealous pinko-liberal members of the list who support free 
> speech right upto the point where someone says something which upsets 
> them, then they run crying to mommy or hide under the bed. 

So far as I know, there hasn't been a single post suggesting that 
Tim's freedom of speech be curtailed.  Nobody is running to mommy, or 
hiding under the bed.  And in the context of this list I have no idea 
what "over-zealous pinko liberal" means.

> Racist comments to me would be those that generalised the opinion to all 
> Japanese, Tim insulted one particular person.

I don't base my assessment of Tim on that single incident -- it's 
based on a history of his comments going back some time.  And I only 
bring it up now because others have.  

> If you are going to become
> oversensitive about such comments the cypherpunks list is probably the
> worst place to be.

I'm not oversensitive -- just stating the obvious to the oblivious.
It is an unfortunate fact that a large percentage of the population is
racist without even being aware of it, and, like you, vigorously deny
it.

> > His imitation of a Japanese accent is purely offensive.  Paul, would
> > you feel comfortable offering this kind of "humor" in a gathering which
> > included Japanese visitors, perhaps potential customers? 
> 
> No, because most people would misinterpret it in the same way you, and 
> some other list members have, if I could be assured they would understand 
> it as a light hearted mild insult rather than a racist remark I would 
> have no problem saying it in those circumstances.

Quit a few years ago I was at a Cray User Group meeting.  Mike Booth,
a very bright technical guy who realized where the money was, and was
transitioning to sales, was giving a presentation on an idea he had
that Cray was marketing as "Microtasking".  It was a very large hall;
there were probably 700 people in attendance, largely white male.  I
was sitting way in the back; I had already seen the presentation. 
Mike was describing how the processors find work: "It's like a Chinese
fire drill." A slight figure in the front, about the 15th row, stood
up and said something I couldn't hear.  Mike couldn't hear it either. 
He asked the individual to speak up.  The crowd was quiet, and a thin,
heavily accented voice floated over it: "Please not to use the term
'Chinese fire drill'".

I have come to appreciate the level of courage involved.  It's not
like spitting out obnoxious statements to a friendly crowd of toadies
on cypherpunks. 

-- 
Kent Crispin				"No reason to get excited",
kent@songbird.com			the thief he kindly spoke...
PGP fingerprint:   B1 8B 72 ED 55 21 5E 44  61 F4 58 0F 72 10 65 55
http://songbird.com/kent/pgp_key.html

Kent Crispin <kent@songbird.com> writes:
> I have come to appreciate the level of courage involved.  It's not
> like spitting out obnoxious statements to a friendly crowd of toadies
> on cypherpunks.

Are you calling me a Timmy May toady, Kent?  What have you been smoking?
I will fight for Timmy's freedom of speech even though I think he knows
very little about modern cryptography.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

> So far as I know, there hasn't been a single post suggesting that 
> Tim's freedom of speech be curtailed.  Nobody is running to mommy, or 
> hiding under the bed.  And in the context of this list I have no idea 
> what "over-zealous pinko liberal" means.

I agree that a lot of comment on the subject has been from the point of 
view you outline above, but several anonymous posts have been of the 
ranting kind that suggests the poster is a quasi-libertarian who believes 
in "freedom of speech, almost". As for the quote, I think in the ranting 
context of the discussion a few pointless and out of context mild flames 
aren`t entirely out of place, and "over-zealous pinko liberal" was just 
the first one that sprang to mind after a few too many whiskeys.

> > Racist comments to me would be those that generalised the opinion to all 
> > Japanese, Tim insulted one particular person.
> 
> I don't base my assessment of Tim on that single incident -- it's 
> based on a history of his comments going back some time.  And I only 
> bring it up now because others have.  

If this is truly the case you have more justification for your comments 
(even though I happen to disagree with them) than most who have posted on 
this subject, who have reacted soley on this one isolated statement without 
any reference to Tims other posts.

> > If you are going to become
> > oversensitive about such comments the cypherpunks list is probably the
> > worst place to be.
> 
> I'm not oversensitive -- just stating the obvious to the oblivious.

Not so, making a distinction between different races is not the same as 
being racist, I could call you a yank, any of our 2 japanese posters a 
slant-eyed jap, and you could refer to me as a closeted limey, we both 
know the other has no serious intention to offend a whole ethnic group, 
even if the statement is intended to be offensive to its particular 
recipient. Someone over sensitive would however feel the comment was 
racist, ymmv, if it did, I would think your opinion wrong.

> It is an unfortunate fact that a large percentage of the population is
> racist without even being aware of it, and, like you, vigorously deny
> it.

I do not consider myself racist, merely able to see past PC bullshit 
about not calling a violent drug addicted "person of colour" a "fucked up 
nigger".

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"

At 08:54 PM 11/14/97 -0500, Anonymous wrote:
>It is astonishing that people like you and William Geiger, who apparently
>make their living as consultants, feel so comfortable publicly approving
>racist comments directed against the Japanese.  Does William expect ever
>to work with a Japanese customer, after suggesting that Truman should
>have dropped additional atomic bombs on Japan?
>
>Even if you share Tim May's lack of moral constraint, you presumably do
>not also share his wealth.  Pragmatic considerations alone should make
>you reluctant to be an apologist for racist comments, or in William's
>case to compound the error with shockingly offensive remarks of his own.

Actually, the beauty of modern capitalism is that there are so many customers for whatever it is one sells (or could sell) that you can say anything you want and not suffer economically for it (for very long).  Freedom, it's wonderful.

DCF

frissell@panix.com writes:

> At 08:54 PM 11/14/97 -0500, Anonymous wrote:
> >It is astonishing that people like you and William Geiger, who apparently
> >make their living as consultants, feel so comfortable publicly approving
> >racist comments directed against the Japanese.  Does William expect ever
> >to work with a Japanese customer, after suggesting that Truman should
> >have dropped additional atomic bombs on Japan?
> >
> >Even if you share Tim May's lack of moral constraint, you presumably do
> >not also share his wealth.  Pragmatic considerations alone should make
> >you reluctant to be an apologist for racist comments, or in William's
> >case to compound the error with shockingly offensive remarks of his own.
>
> Actually, the beauty of modern capitalism is that there are so many customers

Net.scum like Ito-San try to get people fired from their jobs because of
what they say on the Internet.  Nuke the Yellow Peril (again)!

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

At 6:54 PM -0700 11/14/97, Anonymous wrote:

>Tim May's post seems funny to you?  Not a racist comment?
>
>His imitation of a Japanese accent is purely offensive.  Paul, would
>you feel comfortable offering this kind of "humor" in a gathering which
>included Japanese visitors, perhaps potential customers?  That comment
>about kicking Japan's butt would really be humorous, wouldn't it?

Seems to me that people imitate the accents of others all the time. I just
saw Eddie Griffin on HBO, "Voodoo Child," doing some dead-on imitations of
honkeys, Brits, and other blacks. So?

>It is astonishing that people like you and William Geiger, who apparently
>make their living as consultants, feel so comfortable publicly approving
>racist comments directed against the Japanese.  Does William expect ever
>to work with a Japanese customer, after suggesting that Truman should
>have dropped additional atomic bombs on Japan?

Their likely clients don't given one whit what comments they may have made
on mailing lists. Hell, their clients don't even care if they're
card-carrying members of the KKK.

>Even if you share Tim May's lack of moral constraint, you presumably do
>not also share his wealth.  Pragmatic considerations alone should make
>you reluctant to be an apologist for racist comments, or in William's
>case to compound the error with shockingly offensive remarks of his own.

Utter nonsense. Business clients don't care. Nor do the Japs care, as they
have made vastly more racist remarks every day of every year for the past
half century or more.

Sensitive flowers such as yourself need to move out of places like
Amsterdam and get with the program.

--Tim May



The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

Tim May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> >It is astonishing that people like you and William Geiger, who apparently
> >make their living as consultants, feel so comfortable publicly approving
> >racist comments directed against the Japanese.  Does William expect ever
> >to work with a Japanese customer, after suggesting that Truman should
> >have dropped additional atomic bombs on Japan?
>
> Their likely clients don't given one whit what comments they may have made
> on mailing lists. Hell, their clients don't even care if they're
> card-carrying members of the KKK.

I've consulted for lots of weird people, from Baha'i to Serbs to Black
Panthers, but I'd be reluctant to knowingly work for any Japs because Japs are
onboxious and dishonest and I don't like them. I used to work with a guy who
did a lot of work for AUM, who I think did a good job, but should have gassed
many more Japs. I'm further convinced that Japs are shit by their postings to
this list. It's such a pity the Jap cowards capitulated before Truman had a
chance to drop a few dozen more nukes on them! We also shoud have used poison
gas on them, just like they used it on Chinese civilians. We also should have
executed all of their POWs, just like they tortured to death most of European
POWs. The Japs got off way too easy for their crimes in WW2. Why wasn't your
silly little Emperor Hirohito (spit) hanged with the other war criminals? Now
the Japs are hoarding up all the available plutonium, obviously preparing to
nuke China and other neighbors (and possibly U.S.) in a likely future war.

By the way, someone I know in real life claims that they've seen the "Silicon
Valley don't hire list" and I really am on it. :-)

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

"Everyone familiar with group dynamics recognizes that when a list
member leaves, or is absent for a period of time, that it is up to the
other members of the group to help pick up the slack." Joichi Ito told
reporterwhores, in amazingly good English, as the rest of the Japanese
CypherPunks looked at each other and shrugged.
  "It has been difficult, with Dimitri laying low, to keep up the level
of racist ranting that is expected by list subscribers, but fortunately,
other list members have stepped into the void and performed remarkably
well in his absence. Including myself..." Joichi added, stretching his
eyelids out to form wide, round circles, as the other CypherPunks hooted
loudly and banged Saki bottles on the floor, shouting "Foleign Devirs!"

  As Jun Yoshitake farted 'Misty' for the gathered band of protruding
nails, the only black member of the cypherpunks-e mailing list, Nobuki
Nakatuji, from Athens, Georgia, opened the gift he had brought as a
peace offering from their American counterparts.
  There were a lot of angeled and angered eyebrows raised when the
gift turned out to be a microwave oven from a company in New Mexico,
but the frowns quickly turned to smiles when Joichi Ito presented
Nobuki with a gift to take back to the American CypherPunks--a small
model of the U.S.S. Arizona, carved out of volcanic rock and resting
at the bottom of a small fish tank.
  "OUBAKAYAROU!!" shouted Jun Yoshitake, leaping up and handing an
invoice for $50.00 from Mitsubishi to Tim C. May, for the 'gift'.

  Once again, there were many hoots and the banging of Saki bottles
by the gathered Japanese crypto-munitions experts.
  After the ceremonial gifts had been exchanged, the group shared
dinner and many more drinks, expressing regret that their good
fortune in Dimitri's return bringing a wider range of racism back
to the list would be at the expense of others, such as the murdering
Armenian bastard, Ray Arachelian.
There was also a discussion about the problems surrounding the
current implementation of the Misty algorithm. Some felt that Peter
Trei had purposely given them the wrong value for 5 + 7, but others
pointed out that he may have merely been too hasty in trusting the
answer sent by TruthMonger in reply to Trei's question to the list.

  TluthMongler, keeping his back to the wall in case the others
tried to kill and eat him, announced that Dimitri had been added to
the Nuclear Alley "don't hire list."
  Everyone at the meeting soon began nodding out from overdoing the
festivities, mumbling things like, "Miclowave Tokoyo," or stumbling
off to the toilet saying, "I go make smarr Timmy Mayonnaises..chop,
chop--hee, hee."

----------------------------------------------------------------------
  This message here that you read cleated undel the auspices of the 
  Japanese Chaptel of the Erectlonic Folgely Foundation. If you lead,
  you send fify dorrals, OK? (Onry lound-eyes have to pay...and also
  Chinamen...chop, chop.) You not pay, you go nuke youlserf, OK?
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> By the way, someone I know in real life claims that they've seen the "Silicon
> Valley don't hire list" and I really am on it. :-)

Do you think that you are on it because of Tim or for some other reason?

	- Igor.

At 18:25 97/11/14 -0700, Tim May wrote:
> Utter nonsense. Business clients don't care. Nor do the Japs care, as they
> have made vastly more racist remarks every day of every year for the past
> half century or more.

Bullshit. I won't work with racist Japanese or racist Americans.
I've seen many business deals fall apart because of a few stupid
racist remarks.

And not all Japanese are racist pigs. And before you flank me,
I take back my previous remark where I insinuated that Americans
were racist. Not all Americans are racists. Just the stupid ones are.

 - Joi

--
PGP Key: http://pgp.ai.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x2D9461F1
PGP Fingerprint: 58F3 CA9A EFB8 EB9D DF18  6B16 E48D AF2A 2D94 61F1
Home Page: http://domino.garage.co.jp/jito/joihome.nsf
To subscribe to my personal mailing list send mailto:friends-subscribe@ji.to

Joichi Ito <jito@eccosys.com> writes:

> Bullshit. I won't work with racist Japanese or racist Americans.
> I've seen many business deals fall apart because of a few stupid
> racist remarks.

A company that lets a moron like you make business decision deserves
to go under.

> And not all Japanese are racist pigs.

Just "almost all" are.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

At 08:54 PM 11/14/1997 -0500, Anonymous wrote:
>His imitation of a Japanese accent is purely offensive.  

Well of _course_ it's offensive - he was trying to offend the guy, after all.....


				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639

> > find Tim`s post an example of what the developed world knows as humour, 
> > not a serious attack on any ethnic group.
> 
> Tim May's post seems funny to you?  Not a racist comment?

It seems like something which has been blown out of all proportion by a 
few over-zealous pinko-liberal members of the list who support free 
speech right upto the point where someone says something which upsets 
them, then they run crying to mommy or hide under the bed. 
Racist comments to me would be those that generalised the opinion to all 
Japanese, Tim insulted one particular person. If you are going to become
oversensitive about such comments the cypherpunks list is probably the
worst place to be.

> His imitation of a Japanese accent is purely offensive.  Paul, would
> you feel comfortable offering this kind of "humor" in a gathering which
> included Japanese visitors, perhaps potential customers? 

No, because most people would misinterpret it in the same way you, and 
some other list members have, if I could be assured they would understand 
it as a light hearted mild insult rather than a racist remark I would 
have no problem saying it in those circumstances.

> It is astonishing that people like you and William Geiger, who apparently
> make their living as consultants, feel so comfortable publicly approving
> racist comments directed against the Japanese. 

Correction: I don`t make a living as a consultant, it`s merely a 
part-time bit of cash on the side thing, but, personal circumstances 
aside, were I a full time consultant, doing it for a living, I don`t see 
how it would affect my opinion as to what constitutes a serious racist 
comment.

> Does William expect ever
> to work with a Japanese customer, after suggesting that Truman should
> have dropped additional atomic bombs on Japan?

Most customers are too clueless to be reading such a list and won`t know 
what he said, that aside I don`t see the relevance.

> Even if you share Tim May's lack of moral constraint, you presumably do
> not also share his wealth.  Pragmatic considerations alone should make
> you reluctant to be an apologist for racist comments, or in William's
> case to compound the error with shockingly offensive remarks of his own.

I don`t shy away from saying what I think for financial reasons (at least 
not in most cases, that said I wouldn`t call my employer a 
nigger/wop/greezer/kike if I thought it would cost me my job.

        Datacomms Technologies data security
       Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk
  Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org    
       Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/
      Email for PGP public key, ID: FC76DA85
     "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey"

At 9:59 AM -0700 11/16/97, Kent Crispin wrote:

>Mike was describing how the processors find work: "It's like a Chinese
>fire drill." A slight figure in the front, about the 15th row, stood
>up and said something I couldn't hear.  Mike couldn't hear it either.
>He asked the individual to speak up.  The crowd was quiet, and a thin,
>heavily accented voice floated over it: "Please not to use the term
>'Chinese fire drill'".

"Please not to use the term 'welshing on a bet.'"

"Please not to use the term 'going Dutch.'"

"Please not to use the term 'Indian giver.'"

"Please not to use the term 'It's a black thing...you wouldn't understand.'"

"Please not to use the term 'Russian roulette.'"

"Please not to use the term 'scotch' for thrifty."

"Please not to use the term 'white men can't jump.'"

"Please not to use the term 'French kissing.'"

"Please not to use the term 'Polish' to modify another word."

"Please not to use the term 'Whopper.'"

And, my favorite,

"Please not to use the term 'Please not to use the term.'"

Get over it. Sit down and get over it.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

Timmy May <tcmay@got.net> writes:
> "Please not to use the term 'Russian roulette.'"

Russian roulette was invented by the Russian poem Lermontov, who
also had some unkind things to say abotu Armenians (sorry, Ray).

What about "Russian leather" and "black Russian"?

"Please not to use Russian leather when binding books".

Or is it, "Please to use, but to call something vegetarian."

Russians also invented baseball (called "lapta" in Russian).

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <62c0ce046ea812e50882fefc2a6c5667@anon.efga.org>, on 11/14/97 
   at 08:54 PM, Anonymous <anon@anon.efga.org> said:

>Tim May <tcmay@got.net> wrote:

>> At 10:37 PM -0700 11/12/97, Nobuki Nakatuji wrote:
>> >There are RC4 sourcecode in ftp.replay.com.
>> >but, Is it  same RC4 developed RSADSI ?
>> >
>> 
>> It am developed.
>> 
>> You go back where you came. You go back hotmail. We tired your stupid
>> questions on RC4 and your Misty posts.
>> 
>> Sayonara!
>> 
>> (And they wonder why we kicked Japan's butt.)


>Paul Bradley <paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk> writes:

>> As for white supremacy, look elsewhere, I think you`ll 
>> find Tim`s post an example of what the developed world knows as humour, 
>> not a serious attack on any ethnic group.

>Tim May's post seems funny to you?  Not a racist comment?

>His imitation of a Japanese accent is purely offensive.  Paul, would you
>feel comfortable offering this kind of "humor" in a gathering which
>included Japanese visitors, perhaps potential customers?  That comment
>about kicking Japan's butt would really be humorous, wouldn't it?

>It is astonishing that people like you and William Geiger, who apparently
>make their living as consultants, feel so comfortable publicly approving
>racist comments directed against the Japanese.  Does William expect ever
>to work with a Japanese customer, after suggesting that Truman should
>have dropped additional atomic bombs on Japan?

>Even if you share Tim May's lack of moral constraint, you presumably do
>not also share his wealth.  Pragmatic considerations alone should make
>you reluctant to be an apologist for racist comments, or in William's
>case to compound the error with shockingly offensive remarks of his own.


Exactly how do you equate everything negative that is said against Japan
as to being racist? I guess if I had said it about Germany then it would
have been ok?? I bet you are one of those skirt wearing liberals that shed
tears over nuking Japan as being evil but have no problems with the
firebombing of Dresdin.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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