Re: Br'er Tim and the Bug Hole

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Robert Hettinga wrote:
>I mean, Tim, I have to admit I'm just as nervous as the next guy
>about being next to soft targets these days, but I almost find myself
>agreeing with other people, people you would respect otherwise, who
>are saying that you're making yourself the greatest friend that Reno
>and Freeh ever had. A vertiable poster boy for statism if there ever
>was one. And so on.

As Michel Foucault used to say, "The only guarantee of freedom is
freedom itself."  Put another way, "rights which are not exercised are
lost."  We don't see Freeh and Reno backing off so they don't become
poster children for cryptoanarchy, do we?

Just because free speech is a right guaranteed under the Constitution
does not mean that is necessarily a safe right to exercise.  Let us
hope that Tim does not come to harm.  But, let us also give him the
credit he deserves for having the courage to speak his mind.

I've been reading about a newspaper called the "Aurora" which operated
in the 1790s from Philadelphia.  It made itself very unpopular with
Washington by claiming he was not the "Father of the Country".  It
made itself doubly unpopular with Adams for other less than
respectful, but astute, observations.

People said exactly the same things that Hettinga is saying here.  If
they would only behave (i.e., go along with anything), then they
wouldn't have to be censored.

Even though the editors were attacked and beaten, imprisoned, and
charged with Federal crimes, they persevered.  It would not be
unreasonable to say that Jefferson owed his Presidency to their
efforts.  Indeed, it would not be too much to say that the
Constitution (which failed to protect them) might not have survived
without their efforts.

A few courageous people doing the right thing at the right time make a
big difference.  This does not happen by kowtowing to whichever
malfeasant tyrant happens to be in power.  When you are asked to wear
a yellow star, you can be pretty sure that doing so will not save you.

Also, let us not pretend that Tim's gun collection is much protection.
It may delay capture or raise the price of execution of a no-knock
warrant, but if the Powers That Be don't want Tim around, then he's
gone.  It could be a "lone nut" with a sniper rifle, it could be a
"heart attack", it could be a rock star's plane "accidently" hitting
the house: there are many ways to take care of troublemakers.

Monty Cantsin
Editor in Chief
Smile Magazine
http://www.neoism.org/squares/smile_index.html
http://www.neoism.org/squares/cantsin_10.htm

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At 8:31 pm -0500 on 11/12/97, Tim May wrote:


> Thank you. And contrary to what Hettinga claimed in one of his posts, I
>did not call for a judge to be killed. (Though, as I understand the law,
>that's not in and of itself illegal.) What I said was that the judge(s) in
>the Paladin case had committed a capital crime. Saying, for example, that
>OJ committed a capital crime is not uncommon, so why should judges be
>exempt from similar opinions?

Fair enough. However, I'm sure that any average junior-college educated
"BATFag" agent, or whatever, would read that stuff exactly as you intended
it. As a violent threat against a judge. No amount of sophistical
gerrymandering of pseudolegal semantics after the fact will dissuade the
guys with the leftover NATO toys from showing up and leaving their own
calling cards, to quote someone here recently.

> What we are seeing with Hettinga's anguished armchair analysis of me and
>my motivations is a lot of overly personal, even fixated, attention on me
>and my life. He pretends to know my social life, pretends to understand
>why I won't just tone down my comments and not rock the boat. Utter
>nonsense.

Speak for yourself, Tim. Actually, I think this entire argument of yours is a
red herring. To the extent that I, like most of the remaining members of this
list, stick around because you ocassionally say something very interesting is
not prima facie evidence of a "fixation" as you call it. Guessing at your
possible motives for doing some patently foolish things lately has become a
pretty good pastime among those who have read, and respected, what you've
written here on cypherpunks over the years. Call it armchair psychology, if
you want.

> I fully agree, and have not said I expect a full-scale assault on me, nor
> have I said I would expect to win such a war. The context of my recent
> comments about guns was the Gun Shows recently.

And the context of other comments within recent memory has been about
how much ammunition you have, how you've covered your property with sensors,
how you've reinforced various doors and windows, how you've put firearms
around your house, all just waiting for an eventual assault. All prudent
measures, mind you, if taken privately. And if you weren't also threatening
federal officials with their lives on a public email list.

:-).


> (I haven't seen Hettinga foaming at the mentions by certain other
> Cypherpunks of the Cypherpunks Shooting Club (which I am too far away from
> to attend, by the way). Nor did I see him remonstrate against the list
> member who brought his AR-15 carbine to a Cypherpunks meeting and held it
> up, like any good revolutionary holding up his Kalashnikov.)

Nope. You haven't. And I know members of the Cypherpunks Shooting Club, and,
while the AR-15 gag was a little silly, it can probably be chalked up to,
the um, irrational exuberence of youth, or something. :-).

I also happen to know that the person with the AR-15 bought it for personal
defense, probably brought about by the kind of quasi-millenial FUD going
around these days, and not to bring down the new world order or something.

I mean, some of my best friends are gun nuts. :-). I'd even let my daughter
marry one, if I had a daughter. Wish I could go out and play with a varmit
rifle, myself. I've read "Unintended Consequences" at the request of a gun nut
friend, :-), and it was well worth reading, if for all the gun lore alone.
Someday, it would even be nice to go shooting, if I can be trusted on a range,
anyway.

However, Tim, *none* of those people you've mentioned, and, frankly, no one I
know of but you, has effectively broadcasted a threat to kill federal
officials, or, to interpret it charitably, a not-so elliptical request to have
federal officials killed, ala "Beckett". Or a blanket invitation to a midnight
fandango on a California hilltop, for that matter.


> It happens that a lot of totalitarian moves are happening at this time. My
> "Mad as Hell" article lists a bunch of them. CDA clones, new crypto
> legislation, Clinton banning importation of fully-compliant foreign
> weapons, etc.

Yup, and it should be brought to people's attention, (like I'm pointing out
your present silliness),  paid attention to, and taken care of by saying,
publically, how silly, illegal, and draconian it all is. Calling for the
assassination of a judge won't get the job done, however.


Personally, I think the best way to stop all statist crap in its tracks is to
make it economically unrealistic to ban cryptography and anonymity, and the
best way to do that is with the widespread development and use of the
strongest possible financial cryptography. And, of course, the best way to do
that is to create internet transaction settlement protocols which are
so much cheaper to execute than any other way to move money, that they are
ignored at the economic peril of the country which tries to control them. I
find the fact that most of these transaction protocols, such as Chaum's blind
signatures, will prove to be cheaper *because* they're anonymous, more than a
little intriguing, myself. :-).


Nonetheless, whatever people themselves do to make strong crypto happen, it
sure beats wasting time with lawyers (ala EFF and CDT), and now, with this
Fortress Mayñana adventure, guns. Well, offensive threats with guns, anyway.
(And certainly not, of course, with money, to drag Warren Zevon into it. :-)).


I seem to remember someone saying "Cypherpunks write code" around here, once.
That's because running code is a fait accompli. Reality is not optional.


Yes, Tim, I know. You've forgotten more about cryptography and software than
I will ever learn, and you're right. The fact remains, nonetheless, that
you're wasting that all that hard-won experience and information if it has a
9mm hole in it.

> And the rumors are mounting about a series of possible raids around the
>holidays this Thanksgiving Day. The FBI has acknowledge the fax sent out
>as legitimate.

I have one question. Exactly what are you going to say, having made this
incredible prediction of your impending seige at Casa Timothy, when nothing
happens? Are you going to march into the local FBI office and demand that
they lock you up, or something? Exactly how does escalating a violent
confrontation with people who wouldn't care about you otherwise do anything
more than make them want to shut you up the hard way?

More to the point, exactly how does it speed the deployment of cryptography
and privacy?

"Ah", as an Irish friend once used to say, "there's that, isn't it?"


> While militia members and Cypherpunks may not be able to withstand a full
> out war for very long, the mere willingness to defend oneself can itself
> act as a deterrent. This is basic game theory, basic strategy.

With, of course, as Tim ("we're just a mailing list", "anarchy is about no
leaders") May, as Maximum Generalissimo of the Revolution, or better yet, as
the Old Man on the Mountain?

Give me a break.

> Scared bunny little rabbits who tone down their words so as not to make
> their masters angry at them will not be any safer, ironically enough.

Yup, Tim. That's me. A slave. </CatoKalienMode> Hold on? I've got a tattoo
on my forearm somewhere? Nope? That's right... they gave me an implant? I
know I have one, too? because at night? they *talk* to me through it?...
</CKM>

The ganglia twitch. Call it ameteur psychology, I suppose.


Cheers,
Bob Hettinga


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-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>

At 5:45 PM -0700 11/11/97, Monty Cantsin wrote:

>As Michel Foucault used to say, "The only guarantee of freedom is
>freedom itself."  Put another way, "rights which are not exercised are
>lost."  We don't see Freeh and Reno backing off so they don't become
>poster children for cryptoanarchy, do we?

Just so. The notion that we have to tone down, moderate, and soften our
words so that the Authorities won't get angry at us is 90% of the problem
in America today. (And a problem in most other countries, where one finds
otherwise reasonable folks talking about the need to restrain habits like
chewing gum, practicing Scientology, and seeking birth control information.
Not to mention "voluntary mandatory" silence about the Holocaust.)

>Just because free speech is a right guaranteed under the Constitution
>does not mean that is necessarily a safe right to exercise.  Let us
>hope that Tim does not come to harm.  But, let us also give him the
>credit he deserves for having the courage to speak his mind.

Thank you. And contrary to what Hettinga claimed in one of his posts, I did
not call for a judge to be killed. (Though, as I understand the law, that's
not in and of itself illegal.) What I said was that the judge(s) in the
Paladin case had committed a capital crime. Saying, for example, that OJ
committed a capital crime is not uncommon, so why should judges be exempt
from similar opinions?

What we are seeing with Hettinga's anguished armchair analysis of me and my
motivations is a lot of overly personal, even fixated, attention on me and
my life. He pretends to know my social life, pretends to understand why I
won't just tone down my comments and not rock the boat. Utter nonsense.

....
>People said exactly the same things that Hettinga is saying here.  If
>they would only behave (i.e., go along with anything), then they
>wouldn't have to be censored.
...
>A few courageous people doing the right thing at the right time make a
>big difference.  This does not happen by kowtowing to whichever
>malfeasant tyrant happens to be in power.  When you are asked to wear
>a yellow star, you can be pretty sure that doing so will not save you.
>
>Also, let us not pretend that Tim's gun collection is much protection.
>It may delay capture or raise the price of execution of a no-knock
>warrant, but if the Powers That Be don't want Tim around, then he's
>gone.  It could be a "lone nut" with a sniper rifle, it could be a
>"heart attack", it could be a rock star's plane "accidently" hitting
>the house: there are many ways to take care of troublemakers.

I fully agree, and have not said I expect a full-scale assault on me, nor
have I said I would expect to win such a war. The context of my recent
comments about guns was the Gun Shows recently.

(I haven't seen Hettinga foaming at the mentions by certain other
Cypherpunks of the Cypherpunks Shooting Club (which I am too far away from
to attend, by the way). Nor did I see him remonstrate against the list
member who brought his AR-15 carbine to a Cypherpunks meeting and held it
up, like any good revolutionary holding up his Kalashnikov.)

It happens that a lot of totalitarian moves are happening at this time. My
"Mad as Hell" article lists a bunch of them. CDA clones, new crypto
legislation, Clinton banning importation of fully-compliant foreign
weapons, etc.

And the rumors are mounting about a series of possible raids around the
holidays this Thanksgiving Day. The FBI has acknowledge the fax sent out as
legitimate.

While militia members and Cypherpunks may not be able to withstand a full
out war for very long, the mere willingness to defend oneself can itself
act as a deterrent. This is basic game theory, basic strategy.

Scared bunny little rabbits who tone down their words so as not to make
their masters angry at them will not be any safer, ironically enough.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

Tim May allegedly wrote:
> 
> What we are seeing with Hettinga's anguished armchair analysis of me and my
> motivations is a lot of overly personal, even fixated, attention on me and
> my life. He pretends to know my social life, pretends to understand why I
> won't just tone down my comments and not rock the boat. Utter nonsense.

  I have reason to believe that this post is not from Tim May, at all.
  My investigation into the matter suggests that it was written by a 
small man, around 4 feet tall, 85 pounds, with black hair, green eyes,
walks with a slight limp, has ketchup on his tie, and $3.24 in change
in his right pants pocket.
  If you check the headers of the message, you will find an anagram 
for, "Throw rocks at DC!"

  Does this sound like the Tim May that you all know?

Shylock Ohms

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At 7:45 pm -0500 on 11/11/97, Monty wrote:

> As Michel Foucault used to say, "The only guarantee of freedom is
> freedom itself."

The world's foremost pseudomystical relativist cited to support an
absolutist position. The logic escapes me. But then, logic, much less
independent thinking, was never Foucault's strong point.

>  Put another way, "rights which are not exercised are
> lost."

True enough, but it doesn't follow from your Foucault quote very much.
Besides, I'd rather say "because it can be done, it will be done."
Especially if it's better.

Freedom gives you all kinds of benefits you don't get from totalitarianism,
including a more robust economy, and thus, the society it's founded on.

Yeah, I know. It smacks of utilitarian determinism, even, horrors, logical
positivism. So, um, shoot me, okay? :-). On second thought, don't. I'm not
the guy asking for a no-knock around here...

> We don't see Freeh and Reno backing off so they don't become
> poster children for cryptoanarchy, do we?

No, but that's not the point people are making about Tim. If you see a pride
of lions before they see you, it's probably a good idea to give them a
little room. It's not usually a good idea to walk up to them unarmed, and
scold them for being carnivorous. And, frankly, Tim's arsenal, against a
good entry team, is the equivalent of facing that entry team unarmed.
Shooting them only makes them mad.

However, to continue the above analogy, I know not why :-), if you're just
waiting for a Land Rover to come by, so you can get closer without the lions
eating you, I, personally, would call that prudent. Once ensconced in
Leyland's Finest, you can scold your lions all you want, because the
technology protects your foolishness.

So, by the same token, I would also say that if you're going to threaten a
federal judge with death on a public email list, it might behoove you to use
a nym and a remailer. Like you do, Monty. Using a nym and a remailer, I
mean, not threatening a federal judge. :-).

> Just because free speech is a right guaranteed under the Constitution
> does not mean that is necessarily a safe right to exercise.  Let us
> hope that Tim does not come to harm.  But, let us also give him the
> credit he deserves for having the courage to speak his mind.

Yes. Fine. Tim has courage. God bless him. Hope he enjoys his firefight. May
the laser sights of his enemies never stay long enough on his motor cortex
to get a clean shot off. Etcetera.

> I've been reading about a newspaper called the "Aurora" which operated
> in the 1790s from Philadelphia.

Yes. I read it too, when it came out. Franklin was my favorite patriot.
Aurora was founded by his grandson(?), if I remember. The one who went with
Franklin to Paris, as a kid, right?

> It made itself very unpopular with
> Washington by claiming he was not the "Father of the Country".  It
> made itself doubly unpopular with Adams for other less than
> respectful, but astute, observations.

Right. And then Adams passed the Alien and Sedition laws. And then the
Supreme court took him out. Game over.

> People said exactly the same things that Hettinga is saying here.

First of all, let's clear the air about this right now. The bit where I
said,

> >I mean, Tim, I have to admit I'm just as nervous as the next guy
> >about being next to soft targets these days,

is not me saying that I'm afraid that Tim is going to get us all sent to
Auschwitz-on-the-Patomac, or something. Far from it. It means exactly what I
said. That the situation *does* seem politically unstable at the moment.
Well, technologically unstable, anyway, with the rumored availabilty of
suitcase nukes, and a jumpy bunch of Feds almost hoping it's so, so they'll
have a few years more of the Cold War ricebowl to last them 'till
retirement. Winn Schwartau and the "InfoWar" boys are good examples of this
kind of dreck.

To return to the point, my actual concern, if you can call it that at this
point after so much haggling about it, is this now marginal feeling I have
that Tim's going to go piss on some cop's shoes and find himself with a 9
millimeter lobotomy one day. It, frankly, makes me feel sad. Tim's very
smart guy, and I've learned a lot from him, as I expect most people on this
list have.

All that, coupled with the "Final Days" pseudomillenial, well, literally,
FUD, that seems to pervade this list lately, finally brought me to my feet
out of lurker mode to call a spade a spade: The emperor, ladies and
gentleman, has no clothes. The sky isn't falling. The martians aren't
coming, and, face it, folks, the revolution ain't comin' at sunrise
tomorrow, romantic though it may be to believe. We aren't even going to have
Bosnia on the Bay next *week*, even if some people *do* want a little more
challenge in their lives than they're currently getting. :-). At the very
worst, all we're going to get is Tim and his local federales playing king of
the hill, probably with a resultant sinecure for a bunch of defense lawyers
and prosecutors. The irony of Tim, the putative anarchist, shooting his hard
earned asset wad on a bunch of lawyers is a sad one, to say the least.

> If
> they would only behave (i.e., go along with anything), then they
> wouldn't have to be censored.

Hogwash. What the conventional wisdom held, back in the 1790's, was a bunch
of neoaristocratic justifications for the devine rights of the state,
reminiscent of the devine rights of kings, and that George Washington, as
the victor of the revolutionary war, deserved as much power as he wanted.
(Sounds an awful lot like Napoleon, a generation later, who inherited a
similar post-revolutionary society, but one without any prior democratic
traditions.) By their logic, Adams, as his successor, was due the same power
that Washington "abdicated" when he stepped down after his second term.

Fortunately, a certain "nym" named Publius advocated the separation of
powers in the constitution, which created a supreme court, which used
Jefferson's Bill of Rights to shut all that crap down before it went too
far, modulo a little jail time for those who crash-tested the idea. Frankly,
the fact that the constitutional convention *voted* for the Bill of Rights,
or that the Continental Congress voted for the Declaration of Independence
before that, said more about the efficacy of 150 years of prexisting
decentralized personal autonomy in America than it ever did about
Jefferson's euclidean derivation of the rights of man, duly voted on and
approved in Philadelphia.

And, as I've said in another post in this thread, that's the point. The
technological conditions are right again, this time for the kind of
devolution from central authority that we had at the time of the American
revolution, but, instead of the formation of smaller nation-states, or even
Somolian clan warfare on the streets of Cupertino :-), I think that most
industrialized countries will just continue see the further replacement of
government control with economic forces. More freedom, in other words, all
because of the collapse in the price of information processing. The nation
state will become more ceremonial, not more dictatorial.

> Even though the editors were attacked and beaten, imprisoned, and
> charged with Federal crimes, they persevered.  It would not be
> unreasonable to say that Jefferson owed his Presidency to their
> efforts.  Indeed, it would not be too much to say that the
> Constitution (which failed to protect them) might not have survived
> without their efforts.

Really? Exactly how were they released then, when the Alien and Sedition
Acts were found unconstitional?

Again, I find the result more a function of the economics -- and not the
mysticism -- of freedom, than anything else. To be viciously blunt, here,
people live longer, and make more money, when they're free. That's why we
have freedom now. The cost of anything is the foregone alternative. When you
have a free society you forego misery. :-). I love progress.

> A few courageous people doing the right thing at the right time make a
> big difference.  This does not happen by kowtowing to whichever
> malfeasant tyrant happens to be in power.  When you are asked to wear
> a yellow star, you can be pretty sure that doing so will not save you.
>
> Also, let us not pretend that Tim's gun collection is much protection.
> It may delay capture or raise the price of execution of a no-knock
> warrant, but if the Powers That Be don't want Tim around, then he's
> gone.  It could be a "lone nut" with a sniper rifle, it could be a
> "heart attack", it could be a rock star's plane "accidently" hitting
> the house: there are many ways to take care of troublemakers.

Wow. Not a dry eye in the house. Here. Have a hankie, yourself.

Very eloquent, Monty, but it's still just mystical thinking.

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

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-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>