Re: Report on UN conference on Internet and racism

At 06:53 PM 11/18/97 -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>I think that there is plenty of case law of extending constutional
>protections to non-citizens. One that comes to mind were the rulings
>against California inwhich the courts ruled the they were obligated to
>provide schooling and social services to illegal aliens (a really fucked
>rulling IMNSHO but if some good can come out of it no sense not making use
>of it).

        In a much more fundamental sense, if they were not given
constitutional protections they really could be rounded up and bussed
across the border. 


-=-=-
The 2nd guarantees all the rest.

At 08:12 PM 11/18/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>Ironically, the authorities are refusing to enforce the immigration laws.
>This is why the militias here in California have been forced to deal with
>illegal immigrants in the only way left to them. (There's a hunt in
>Imperial Valley this coming Saturday.)
>
>--Tim May

Now that's a tasteful bit of humor, if I do say so myself.

It's so nice to know that being lucky enough to be born in the U.S.
authorizes us to look down on and hey, advocate killing those who aren't so
fortunate.

--Brian


Brian Daniels               | Gremlins squashed, bit-buckets emptied,
briandaniels@mindspring.com | webs woven&patched, cables untangled,
                            | users placated (extra fee), demons
                            | invoked&dispelled, hacks while you wait!
		http://www.mindspring.com/~briandaniels

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In <3.0.3.32.19971119105751.006dedc8@pop.mindspring.com>, on 11/19/97 
   at 10:57 AM, Brian the Obscure <briandaniels@mindspring.com> said:

>At 08:12 PM 11/18/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>>Ironically, the authorities are refusing to enforce the immigration laws.
>>This is why the militias here in California have been forced to deal with
>>illegal immigrants in the only way left to them. (There's a hunt in
>>Imperial Valley this coming Saturday.)
>>
>>--Tim May

>Now that's a tasteful bit of humor, if I do say so myself.

>It's so nice to know that being lucky enough to be born in the U.S.
>authorizes us to look down on and hey, advocate killing those who aren't
>so fortunate.

<sigh> I can hear the violins playing in the background.

This is no different than shooting a burglar that has broken into your
house and is robbing it. I think that you are missing a basic concept that
it is not their country!! If where they are at is such a miserable
shithole then maybe they should do somthing to fix their country rather
than comming here and attempt to make it yet another miserable shithole.

It is not the fault of America that Mexico is the shithole that it is.
Perhaps if they were to overthrow their corrupt government and replaced it
with one based on freedom (both political and economic) there would be no
need for them to come here in the first place. California, New Mexico,
Arizona, and Texas should not be the release valve for a corrupt Mexican
government so they can continue to rape their country and leave their
citizens in poverty.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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William H Geiger writes:

> It is not the fault of America that Mexico is the shithole that it is.

Actually, it is.

-- 
Colin

At 10:46 AM 11/19/97 -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>In <3.0.3.32.19971119105751.006dedc8@pop.mindspring.com>, on 11/19/97 
>   at 10:57 AM, Brian the Obscure <briandaniels@mindspring.com> said:
>
>>At 08:12 PM 11/18/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>>>Ironically, the authorities are refusing to enforce the immigration laws.
>>>This is why the militias here in California have been forced to deal with
>>>illegal immigrants in the only way left to them. (There's a hunt in
>>>Imperial Valley this coming Saturday.)
>>>
>>>--Tim May
>
>>Now that's a tasteful bit of humor, if I do say so myself.
>
>>It's so nice to know that being lucky enough to be born in the U.S.
>>authorizes us to look down on and hey, advocate killing those who aren't
>>so fortunate.
>
><sigh> I can hear the violins playing in the background.

Hey, it beats the stomping of jackboots and shouts of 'Sig Heil!'

>
>This is no different than shooting a burglar that has broken into your
>house and is robbing it. I think that you are missing a basic concept that
>it is not their country!! If where they are at is such a miserable
>shithole then maybe they should do somthing to fix their country rather
>than comming here and attempt to make it yet another miserable shithole.

Of course, you have an unimpeachable claim, although 'Geiger the III' is a
rather odd last name for an American Indian.

>
>It is not the fault of America that Mexico is the shithole that it is.
>Perhaps if they were to overthrow their corrupt government and replaced it
>with one based on freedom (both political and economic) there would be no
>need for them to come here in the first place. California, New Mexico,
>Arizona, and Texas should not be the release valve for a corrupt Mexican
>government so they can continue to rape their country and leave their
>citizens in poverty.

Lets see.  Are you aware of how Texas, California, and New Mexico came to
be part of the US?  Probably doesn't matter - those dang furriners had no
right to the lands they lived on anyway, once the U.S. decided it wanted them.

I don't find it at all surprising that people who live in a 'shithole' want
to leave.  It is easy for you to suggest that they overthrow their
government - after all, you won't be the one facing a Mexican prison.  

This is going way off topic at this point, and I am at fault for starting
it.  I was just distressed at how rapidly this list seems to be turning
towards hate and bigotry.  Lets take it to email.

--Brian



Brian Daniels               | Gremlins squashed, bit-buckets emptied,
briandaniels@mindspring.com | webs woven&patched, cables untangled,
                            | users placated (extra fee), demons
                            | invoked&dispelled, hacks while you wait!
		http://www.mindspring.com/~briandaniels

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At 10:08 PM 11/19/97 -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>My impeachable claim is I am here and they are not. I see no reason why I
>or anyone else should sit idly by and watch the SouthWest be turned into a
>Mexican colony. 

Move North.

What are your grounds for restricting the rights of your neighbors to 
contract with Mexicans or whoever else they care to?  Buy, sell, hire, rent, 
etc.

DCF

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In <3.0.2.32.19971120164135.035dba00@panix.com>, on 11/20/97 
   at 04:41 PM, Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com> said:

>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

>At 10:08 PM 11/19/97 -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>>My impeachable claim is I am here and they are not. I see no reason why I
>>or anyone else should sit idly by and watch the SouthWest be turned into a
>>Mexican colony. 

>Move North.

Hmmm just like the Indians should have moved West?

>What are your grounds for restricting the rights of your neighbors to 
>contract with Mexicans or whoever else they care to?  Buy, sell, hire,
>rent,  etc.

When you have +1,000,000 Mexicans comming across the boarder a year that
is called an Invasion. When the Federal Government refuses to defend the
boarders and forces the citizens of the states to aid in this invasion
this is called Treason.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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> >What are your grounds for restricting the rights of your neighbors to 
> >contract with Mexicans or whoever else they care to?  Buy, sell, hire,
> >rent,  etc.

On Thu, 20 Nov 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:
> When you have +1,000,000 Mexicans comming across the boarder a year that
> is called an Invasion. When the Federal Government refuses to defend the
> boarders and forces the citizens of the states to aid in this invasion
> this is called Treason.

After all it is *very* important to have the Federal Government defend 
boarders against exploitation by their landlords! :-)

Seriously though.  Getting all emotionally tied up in concepts like 
"defending the borders" and "forcing" citizens to "aid in this invasion" 
may sound good, but whose land is it anyway?  I don't own a single acre, 
not even a single square foot of land in the entire southwestern/western 
part of the North American continent.

What gives the hoodlums in Washington, D.C. the right to draw a line on a 
map and try to control people's travel across that line?

___________________________________________________________________
Jon Galt
e-mail:  jongalt@pinn.net
website:  http://www.pinn.net/~jongalt/
PGP public key available on my website.
__________________________________________________________________

Jon Galt <jongalt@pinn.net> writes:
> What gives the hoodlums in Washington, D.C. the right to draw a line on a
> map and try to control people's travel across that line?

Nothing. Timmy C[...] May has exposed himself once again as a statist scum no
different from the reputed Jap pedophile Hirochi "no crypto for the four
politically incorrect horsepersons" Ito, geodesic baron Hettiga and the
jackbooted Nazi KKKent KKKrispin[1]. National borders are an artifact of a
state and must be destroyed together with the state. What makes Timmy any more
"legal" in California than some poor slob who was born a few hundred miles
south? People should be free to live where they want to / can afford to.

[1] Sandia means watermelon in Spanish.

---

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM
Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps

Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote:
> 
> Jon Galt <jongalt@pinn.net> writes:
> > What gives the hoodlums in Washington, D.C. the right to draw a line on a
> > map and try to control people's travel across that line?
> 
> Nothing. Timmy C[...] May has exposed himself once again as a statist scum no
> different from the reputed Jap pedophile Hirochi "no crypto for the four
> politically incorrect horsepersons" Ito, geodesic baron Hettiga and the
> jackbooted Nazi KKKent KKKrispin[1]. National borders are an artifact of a
> state and must be destroyed together with the state. What makes Timmy any more
> "legal" in California than some poor slob who was born a few hundred miles
> south? People should be free to live where they want to / can afford to.
> 
> [1] Sandia means watermelon in Spanish.

John,
 Sure, you tell _me_ that you're out of drugs, and then you share with
Dimitri. Asshole.

Toto

> >What are your grounds for restricting the rights of your neighbors to 
> >contract with Mexicans or whoever else they care to?  Buy, sell, hire,
> >rent,  etc.
> 
> When you have +1,000,000 Mexicans coming across the border a year that
> is called an Invasion. When the Federal Government refuses to defend the
> borders and forces the citizens of the states to aid in this invasion
> this is called Treason.

just out of curiosity, where do you get your numbers?

On Thu, 20 Nov 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> In <3.0.2.32.19971120164135.035dba00@panix.com>, on 11/20/97 
>    at 04:41 PM, Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com> said:
> 
> >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> 
> >At 10:08 PM 11/19/97 -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:
> >>My impeachable claim is I am here and they are not. I see no reason why I
> >>or anyone else should sit idly by and watch the SouthWest be turned into a
> >>Mexican colony. 
> 
> >Move North.
> 
> Hmmm just like the Indians should have moved West?
> 
> >What are your grounds for restricting the rights of your neighbors to 
> >contract with Mexicans or whoever else they care to?  Buy, sell, hire,
> >rent,  etc.
> 
> When you have +1,000,000 Mexicans comming across the boarder a year that
> is called an Invasion. When the Federal Government refuses to defend the
> boarders and forces the citizens of the states to aid in this invasion
> this is called Treason.
> 

I feel your pain, William ;-)

I suggest we take this discussion towards a more constructive approach.

Lets just start a country in cypherspace.  I'll come up with a nice
serialized certificate of citizenship available in PDF format, suitable
for framing.  With your PDF cert comes a client-side certificate and
membership.  All this for only $1. 

Whats that I hear you say?

"I'd buy that for a dollar!"

And that's not all!

All you have to do is volunteer to spam the correct legislators
with pro-crypto lobbying.  Enlist to defend cypherspace.

Remember, enlistment guarantees citizenship!

(ahem...now back to your regularly scheduled silliness)

jim

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.3.32.19971119124900.007463b0@pop.mindspring.com>, on 11/19/97 
   at 12:49 PM, Brian the Obscure <briandaniels@mindspring.com> said:

>At 10:46 AM 11/19/97 -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>
>>In <3.0.3.32.19971119105751.006dedc8@pop.mindspring.com>, on 11/19/97 
>>   at 10:57 AM, Brian the Obscure <briandaniels@mindspring.com> said:
>>
>>>At 08:12 PM 11/18/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>>>>Ironically, the authorities are refusing to enforce the immigration laws.
>>>>This is why the militias here in California have been forced to deal with
>>>>illegal immigrants in the only way left to them. (There's a hunt in
>>>>Imperial Valley this coming Saturday.)
>>>>
>>>>--Tim May
>>
>>>Now that's a tasteful bit of humor, if I do say so myself.
>>
>>>It's so nice to know that being lucky enough to be born in the U.S.
>>>authorizes us to look down on and hey, advocate killing those who aren't
>>>so fortunate.
>>
>><sigh> I can hear the violins playing in the background.

>Hey, it beats the stomping of jackboots and shouts of 'Sig Heil!'

>>
>>This is no different than shooting a burglar that has broken into your
>>house and is robbing it. I think that you are missing a basic concept that
>>it is not their country!! If where they are at is such a miserable
>>shithole then maybe they should do somthing to fix their country rather
>>than comming here and attempt to make it yet another miserable shithole.

>Of course, you have an unimpeachable claim, although 'Geiger the III' is
>a rather odd last name for an American Indian.

My impeachable claim is I am here and they are not. I see no reason why I
or anyone else should sit idly by and watch the SouthWest be turned into a
Mexican colony. You bring up the American Indians, it is interesting to
note that if they had bothered to stand up against the European invaders
and defended their boarders from the begining they more then likely would
still be running the place.

"Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it."

>>
>>It is not the fault of America that Mexico is the shithole that it is.
>>Perhaps if they were to overthrow their corrupt government and replaced it
>>with one based on freedom (both political and economic) there would be no
>>need for them to come here in the first place. California, New Mexico,
>>Arizona, and Texas should not be the release valve for a corrupt Mexican
>>government so they can continue to rape their country and leave their
>>citizens in poverty.

>Lets see.  Are you aware of how Texas, California, and New Mexico came to
>be part of the US?  Probably doesn't matter - those dang furriners had no
>right to the lands they lived on anyway, once the U.S. decided it wanted
>them.

So are you suggesting we give it back? Perhaps everyone should just pack
up and go back to Europe or Asia or Africa and give it all back to the
Indians? Of course you do know that the "Native Americans" that were in
North America at the time Europeans started to colonize North America were
not the "original" humans here. There were actually several waves of
humans coming over the Siberia-Alaska land bridge over a long period of
time. I am sure that the peace loving "Native Americans" wouldn't think of
conquering lands occupied by others now would they??

>I don't find it at all surprising that people who live in a 'shithole'
>want to leave.  It is easy for you to suggest that they overthrow their
>government - after all, you won't be the one facing a Mexican prison.  

Personally I could care less what they do. It's not my problem it is
theirs. It is their responsibility to fix their problems. 

>This is going way off topic at this point, and I am at fault for starting
>it.  I was just distressed at how rapidly this list seems to be turning
>towards hate and bigotry.  Lets take it to email.

There is no hatred or bigotry involved in my position. I am really
apathetic towards the Mexicans. They can go and do whatever they want so
long as they are not doing it here. The same goes for the Germans, French,
Ethiopians, Iraqies, Iraelies, Australians, Japanizes, et. al. 

I don't care what my neighbor does in his house so long as he doesn't try
comming over and doing it in mine.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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> >Of course, you have an unimpeachable claim, although 'Geiger the III' is
> >a rather odd last name for an American Indian.
> 
William H. Geiger III:
> My impeachable claim is I am here and they are not. I see no reason why I
> or anyone else should sit idly by and watch the SouthWest be turned into a
> Mexican colony.

You are here, and they are not?  Then what's the problem?  I thought you 
had a problem with the fact that they ARE "here"!


> >I don't find it at all surprising that people who live in a 'shithole'
> >want to leave.  It is easy for you to suggest that they overthrow their
> >government - after all, you won't be the one facing a Mexican prison.  
> 
William H. Geiger III:
> Personally I could care less what they do.

This is simply and obviously not the case.  You do care what they do.  If 
not, you wouldn't express such violent feelings towards them.



> >This is going way off topic at this point, and I am at fault for starting
> >it.  I was just distressed at how rapidly this list seems to be turning
> >towards hate and bigotry.  Lets take it to email.
> 
William H. Geiger III:
> There is no hatred or bigotry involved in my position. I am really
> apathetic towards the Mexicans. They can go and do whatever they want so
> long as they are not doing it here.

By the way, what do you mean by "here"?

William H. Geiger III:
> The same goes for the Germans, French,
> Ethiopians, Iraqies, Iraelies, Australians, Japanizes, et. al. 
> 
> I don't care what my neighbor does in his house so long as he doesn't try
> comming over and doing it in mine.

Oh, now I understand.  You mentioned the southwest U.S.A. earlier.  
Obviously you have a house in the U.S.A. southwest, and some furners are 
on your property.  I suggest you contact your local police, or perhaps a 
private security firm would do a better job for you.

___________________________________________________________________
Jon Galt
e-mail:  jongalt@pinn.net
website:  http://www.pinn.net/~jongalt/
PGP public key available on my website.
__________________________________________________________________

On Wed, Nov 19, 1997 at 10:08:45PM -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:
> Mexican colony. You bring up the American Indians, it is interesting to
> note that if they had bothered to stand up against the European invaders
> and defended their boarders from the begining they more then likely would
> still be running the place.

yeah yeah, sure. Because history tells you they didn't, perhaps ? They
lost. Period. Even in south america, where they were better organized
and quickly realized they had to fight, they lost. A matter of
technology, I would say....

> "Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it."

History shows that protectionism doesn't lead anywhere usually. I think
your whole point is flawed, anyway. On one hand you complained about a
gouvernement which takes your money in taxes, and on the other hand you
want the same gouvernement to protect you from the invading mexican scum
? I don't get it. Freedom means freedom of move, and that means that
people will go where they think they can get a better life, wether you
like it or not. Besides, over the past century, a good deal of
interesting people in this country have been emigrants, anyway. So, at
least, you should phrase your point like this "I don't care if an indian
software engineer comes in California, but I don't want to see mexicans
unless they have a PhD". At least that way you will be more coherent.

> >>It is not the fault of America that Mexico is the shithole that it is.
> >>Perhaps if they were to overthrow their corrupt government and replaced it

Actually, it is for a good part. As a few european countries are
responsable for the current shitty situation in their former colonies,
the US aren't clean either when you look at what's going on in south
america. Like it or not. Somehow you want to eat the cake and have it all.

> There is no hatred or bigotry involved in my position. I am really
> apathetic towards the Mexicans. They can go and do whatever they want so
> long as they are not doing it here. The same goes for the Germans, French,
> Ethiopians, Iraqies, Iraelies, Australians, Japanizes, et. al. 

If you (I mean this country) had had this attitude in the past, I don't
think you would be where you are today.
Being in what is supposed to be one of the best academic places around,
I can tell you that if you were to round up and send back home all the
people who don't carry a US passport you wouldn't be left with that
much. (Please avoid saying "oh well, these have a green card and can
legally stay. My whole point is that if borders shouln't have a sense
when money, software, ideas, speech, whatever are concerned, this
applies to people as well. Otherwise your logic is different from what I
was taught)

> I don't care what my neighbor does in his house so long as he doesn't try
> comming over and doing it in mine.

You may own your house and the garden which surrounds it, but otherwise
I doubt you have any more right than me, a random mexican, the guy next
door, on the street which passes by. Or to say it better, you can't
enforce any claimed right. Maybe you can on your street, but what about
the next street ? and the next ? What are you going to do ? create a
militia to defend a few blocks ? and then a bigger one to defend your
town ? pretty soon you will have a nice organization, collecting taxes
to pay the guards at the border of the territory. That's called a
gouvernement ;-) 

                          F.

-- 
Fabrice Planchon                                          (ph) 609/258-6495
Applied Math Program, 210 Fine Hall                      (fax) 609/258-1735

Yipee!  The know-nothings are back and vehement about it.
At 10:08 PM 11/19/97 -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>In <3.0.3.32.19971119124900.007463b0@pop.mindspring.com>, on 11/19/97 
>   at 12:49 PM, Brian the Obscure <briandaniels@mindspring.com> said:
>
>>At 10:46 AM 11/19/97 -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>>
>>>In <3.0.3.32.19971119105751.006dedc8@pop.mindspring.com>, on 11/19/97 
>>>   at 10:57 AM, Brian the Obscure <briandaniels@mindspring.com> said:
>>>
>>>>At 08:12 PM 11/18/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>>>>>Ironically, the authorities are refusing to enforce the immigration laws.
>>>>>This is why the militias here in California have been forced to deal with
>>>>>illegal immigrants in the only way left to them. (There's a hunt in
>>>>>Imperial Valley this coming Saturday.)
>>>>>
>>>>>--Tim May
>>>
>>>>Now that's a tasteful bit of humor, if I do say so myself.
>>>
>>>>It's so nice to know that being lucky enough to be born in the U.S.
>>>>authorizes us to look down on and hey, advocate killing those who aren't
>>>>so fortunate.
>>>
>>><sigh> I can hear the violins playing in the background.
>
>>Hey, it beats the stomping of jackboots and shouts of 'Sig Heil!'
>
>>>
>>>This is no different than shooting a burglar that has broken into your
>>>house and is robbing it. I think that you are missing a basic concept that
>>>it is not their country!! If where they are at is such a miserable
>>>shithole then maybe they should do somthing to fix their country rather
>>>than comming here and attempt to make it yet another miserable shithole.
>
>>Of course, you have an unimpeachable claim, although 'Geiger the III' is
>>a rather odd last name for an American Indian.
>
>My impeachable claim is I am here and they are not. I see no reason why I
>or anyone else should sit idly by and watch the SouthWest be turned into a
>Mexican colony. You bring up the American Indians, it is interesting to
>note that if they had bothered to stand up against the European invaders
>and defended their boarders from the begining they more then likely would
>still be running the place.
>
>"Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it."
>
>>>
>>>It is not the fault of America that Mexico is the shithole that it is.
>>>Perhaps if they were to overthrow their corrupt government and replaced it
>>>with one based on freedom (both political and economic) there would be no
>>>need for them to come here in the first place. California, New Mexico,
>>>Arizona, and Texas should not be the release valve for a corrupt Mexican
>>>government so they can continue to rape their country and leave their
>>>citizens in poverty.
>
>>Lets see.  Are you aware of how Texas, California, and New Mexico came to
>>be part of the US?  Probably doesn't matter - those dang furriners had no
>>right to the lands they lived on anyway, once the U.S. decided it wanted
>>them.
>
>So are you suggesting we give it back? Perhaps everyone should just pack
>up and go back to Europe or Asia or Africa and give it all back to the
>Indians? Of course you do know that the "Native Americans" that were in
>North America at the time Europeans started to colonize North America were
>not the "original" humans here. There were actually several waves of
>humans coming over the Siberia-Alaska land bridge over a long period of
>time. I am sure that the peace loving "Native Americans" wouldn't think of
>conquering lands occupied by others now would they??
>
>>I don't find it at all surprising that people who live in a 'shithole'
>>want to leave.  It is easy for you to suggest that they overthrow their
>>government - after all, you won't be the one facing a Mexican prison.  
>
>Personally I could care less what they do. It's not my problem it is
>theirs. It is their responsibility to fix their problems. 
>
>>This is going way off topic at this point, and I am at fault for starting
>>it.  I was just distressed at how rapidly this list seems to be turning
>>towards hate and bigotry.  Lets take it to email.
>
>There is no hatred or bigotry involved in my position. I am really
>apathetic towards the Mexicans. They can go and do whatever they want so
>long as they are not doing it here. The same goes for the Germans, French,
>Ethiopians, Iraqies, Iraelies, Australians, Japanizes, et. al. 
>
>I don't care what my neighbor does in his house so long as he doesn't try
>comming over and doing it in mine.
>
>
>- -- 
>- ---------------------------------------------------------------
>William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
>Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0
>
>Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
>PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
>OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html
            
>- ---------------------------------------------------------------
>
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                             -Colin

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.3.32.19971119230238.00cb62b0@pop-server.caltech.edu>, on 11/20/97 
   at 02:02 AM, "Colin A. Reed" <aleph@cco.caltech.edu> said:

>Yipee!  The know-nothings are back and vehement about it.

hmmmmm Quoted 115 lines of text for that one-liner?!?

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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At 10:34 PM -0700 11/18/97, Mikhael Frieden wrote:
>At 06:53 PM 11/18/97 -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>>I think that there is plenty of case law of extending constutional
>>protections to non-citizens. One that comes to mind were the rulings
>>against California inwhich the courts ruled the they were obligated to
>>provide schooling and social services to illegal aliens (a really fucked
>>rulling IMNSHO but if some good can come out of it no sense not making use
>>of it).
>
>        In a much more fundamental sense, if they were not given
>constitutional protections they really could be rounded up and bussed
>across the border.

And what would be wrong with this?

If they're not citizens, and not on a valid visa, they have no legal right
to be in the U.S.

(At a more abstract level, I support the idea of completely open borders,
provided we end all forcible contributions to welfare, medical care,
schools, job quotas, etc. But so long as taxpayers are paying 60% of
everything earned, as I am, to support others, the rules about entry to the
U.S. must be enforced.)

Ironically, the authorities are refusing to enforce the immigration laws.
This is why the militias here in California have been forced to deal with
illegal immigrants in the only way left to them. (There's a hunt in
Imperial Valley this coming Saturday.)

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

Tim May writes:
> At 10:17 PM -0700 11/18/97, Colin A. Reed wrote:

>> I think the most important constitutional protection is that of
>> due-process.  Thus we need to have a court proceeding to determine that
>> they really are in the US without a valid visa before we can bus them out.

> It's called a "Green Card," popularly.

> No court proceeding is needed to deport illegal aliens, save for a
> perfunctory classification hearing to determine whether or not they have a
> Green Card.

How do you know that someone is not a citizen?  My mother-in-law has no
green card, can barely speak English, yet can legally stay in the US for 
as long as she likes.

Of course, that's because she has been a US citizen for over thirty years.

> I hope you were not suggesting a long drawn-out court case, with lawyers
> paid for by the taxpayers, to decide that which is patently obvious?

How do we know that you are in this country legally?  The last time you
were outdoors, would you have been able to prove that you are in this
country legally?

Innocent until proven guilty.  Unless he speaks Spanish.

It's called the Sixth Amendment, in case you weren't paying attention.

-- 
Colin

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <ocr4t58q25f.fsf@ml.com>, on 11/19/97 
   at 11:28 AM, Colin Rafferty <craffert@ml.com> said:

>Tim May writes:
>> At 10:17 PM -0700 11/18/97, Colin A. Reed wrote:

>>> I think the most important constitutional protection is that of
>>> due-process.  Thus we need to have a court proceeding to determine that
>>> they really are in the US without a valid visa before we can bus them out.

>> It's called a "Green Card," popularly.

>> No court proceeding is needed to deport illegal aliens, save for a
>> perfunctory classification hearing to determine whether or not they have a
>> Green Card.

>How do you know that someone is not a citizen?  My mother-in-law has no
>green card, can barely speak English, yet can legally stay in the US for 
>as long as she likes.

>Of course, that's because she has been a US citizen for over thirty
>years.

>> I hope you were not suggesting a long drawn-out court case, with lawyers
>> paid for by the taxpayers, to decide that which is patently obvious?

>How do we know that you are in this country legally?  The last time you
>were outdoors, would you have been able to prove that you are in this
>country legally?

>Innocent until proven guilty.  Unless he speaks Spanish.

>It's called the Sixth Amendment, in case you weren't paying attention.

This is a problem.

How do you get rid of the illegals without infringing on the rights of the
citizens?

FWIW I have been strongly against the various laws and inititives
mandating ID for the citizen units especially the push for a national ID.
Curtailing the rights of the citizens to solve a "problem" has never been
a proper approach as it leads to invented "problems" for the sole purpose
of enacting the "solution".

IMNSHO think that the various boarder states should put the National Guard
on the boarder to keep them out. Still doesn't resolve the problem of the
ones that are already here.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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On 19 Nov 1997, Colin Rafferty wrote:

> Tim May writes:

> > No court proceeding is needed to deport illegal aliens, save for a
> > perfunctory classification hearing to determine whether or not they have a
> > Green Card.
> 
> How do you know that someone is not a citizen?  My mother-in-law has no
> green card, can barely speak English, yet can legally stay in the US for 
> as long as she likes.
> 
> Of course, that's because she has been a US citizen for over thirty years.

The solition to this problem is manotory citizen identifaction cards.
With non possession of your card punishable by immeadet deportation.
Because if your not a citizen then you have no rights.

In fact if noncitizens have no rights or protection under the law I have a
great idear for an inexpencive food sorce.

- -- 
Please excuse my spelling as I suffer from agraphia see the url in my header. 
Never trust a country with more peaple then sheep.  ex-net.scum and proud
You Say To People "Throw Off Your Chains" And They Make New Chains For
Themselves? --Terry Pratchett.  I do not reply to munged addresses.

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In <v03102807b098087b39e3@[207.167.93.63]>, on 11/18/97 
   at 08:12 PM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:

>At 10:34 PM -0700 11/18/97, Mikhael Frieden wrote:
>>At 06:53 PM 11/18/97 -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>>>I think that there is plenty of case law of extending constutional
>>>protections to non-citizens. One that comes to mind were the rulings
>>>against California inwhich the courts ruled the they were obligated to
>>>provide schooling and social services to illegal aliens (a really fucked
>>>rulling IMNSHO but if some good can come out of it no sense not making use
>>>of it).
>>
>>        In a much more fundamental sense, if they were not given
>>constitutional protections they really could be rounded up and bussed
>>across the border.

>And what would be wrong with this?

>If they're not citizens, and not on a valid visa, they have no legal
>right to be in the U.S.

>(At a more abstract level, I support the idea of completely open borders,
>provided we end all forcible contributions to welfare, medical care,
>schools, job quotas, etc. But so long as taxpayers are paying 60% of
>everything earned, as I am, to support others, the rules about entry to
>the U.S. must be enforced.)

>Ironically, the authorities are refusing to enforce the immigration laws.
>This is why the militias here in California have been forced to deal with
>illegal immigrants in the only way left to them. (There's a hunt in
>Imperial Valley this coming Saturday.)

Well at one time there was a demand for cheap labor by US industry that
supported the infux of immagrents. In modern times their is no such demand
( if there were we have plenty of bums on welfare that can fill this need)
but there is a demand for cheap votes. The current Statest have been
watching their power base erroding over the years as more and more
Americans refuse to beleive thier socialist lies. The only way that they
can continue in power is to import new voters who are easier to hoodwink
and cheaper to buy. Confermation of this policy can be seen in the
behavior of the INS durring the last election cycle where large numbers of
immigrants were naturalized before the elections.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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At 9:58 PM -0700 11/18/97, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>Well at one time there was a demand for cheap labor by US industry that
>supported the infux of immagrents. In modern times their is no such demand
>( if there were we have plenty of bums on welfare that can fill this need)

This is actually not the case. I live between Santa Cruz and Salinas and
Monterey, home to some of the most fertile soil in the world (most of the
lettuce, strawberries, artichokes, and other vegetables consumed in the
U.S. is/are grown within 30 miles of me). Every day I see stoop laborers,
up from Jalisco or Michuchan or other provinces, glad to make more in a few
months here than they make in a few years back in Mexico.

And every day I see bums, drifters, winos, layabouts, and derelicts,
holding up their pathetic "Will work for food" signs. (Which are lies, of
course. Anyone trying to get some decent work out of these bums will find
zilch.)

I saw a great bumper sticker on the back of a truck filled with spray
painting gear. Driven by a black guy, interesting enough. It said:

"I _do_ work for food."


>but there is a demand for cheap votes. The current Statest have been
>watching their power base erroding over the years as more and more
>Americans refuse to beleive thier socialist lies. The only way that they
>can continue in power is to import new voters who are easier to hoodwink
>and cheaper to buy. Confermation of this policy can be seen in the
>behavior of the INS durring the last election cycle where large numbers of
>immigrants were naturalized before the elections.

By the way, this massive purchase of votes is now being rolled back.
Immigration is planning to reverse many of these "instant citizenship"
deals. Too late to have an effect on Clinton's '96 election, but nothing
could have saved Dole.

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v0310280cb0981af490ec@[207.167.93.63]>, on 11/18/97 
   at 11:39 PM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:

>By the way, this massive purchase of votes is now being rolled back.
>Immigration is planning to reverse many of these "instant citizenship"
>deals. Too late to have an effect on Clinton's '96 election, but nothing
>could have saved Dole.

I'll have to agree with you there, Dole '96 was dead right out of the
gate.

I was actually thinking more along the lines of the Dornan Campagne. So
many non-citizens were voting in that election it brought back fond
memories of the politics of Chicago.

Chicago the most democratic city in the world even the dead get to vote,
twice!! :=0

BTW does anyone know what ever happend with Dornan's challenge to the last
election?

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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William H. Geiger III wrote:
>

>
> BTW does anyone know what ever happend with Dornan's challenge to the last
> election?
>


He lost.
Rumor has it he is going after it again but we will see.
Woody Jenkins case was rough too and he lost .
No telling what Woody will do.

Genie

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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At 11:47 PM 11/18/97 -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>BTW does anyone know what ever happend with Dornan's challenge to the
last
>election?

The last I heard, approximately 1500 illegal aliens had been found to
have voted in that election (Dornan lost by about 940 votes) but
Democrats in the House were stonewalling taking any action to
Reinstate Dornan.  The INS was also refusing to cooperate in the
effort to determine if suspect voters were actually citizens or not.
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Jonathan Wienke

PGP Key Fingerprints:
7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams

"Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential."
-- Jonathan Wienke

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`

At 10:17 PM -0700 11/18/97, Colin A. Reed wrote:

>I think the most important constitutional protection is that of
>due-process.  Thus we need to have a court proceeding to determine that
>they really are in the US without a valid visa before we can bus them out.

It's called a "Green Card," popularly.

(Remember those, "Aliens, remember that you must report to the Alien
Landing Terminal every January.")

No court proceeding is needed to deport illegal aliens, save for a
perfunctory classification hearing to determine whether or not they have a
Green Card.

I hope you were not suggesting a long drawn-out court case, with lawyers
paid for by the taxpayers, to decide that which is patently obvious?

--Tim May



The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

On Tue, 18 Nov 1997, Tim May wrote:
> I hope you were not suggesting a long drawn-out court case, with lawyers
> paid for by the taxpayers, to decide that which is patently obvious?
> 
> --Tim May

I have read quite a few of your messages related to this, Tim, and I find 
it quite interesting that the quintessential Crypto Anarchist has such a 
conservative attitude.

Long drawn out court cases are not "paid for by taxpayers".  They are 
paid for by the government, which happens to have stolen the funds from 
its victims (taxpayers).

Why does the fact that they (the government) have initiated force against 
you (or stolen from / taxed you) somehow imply that they now have an 
obligation to further their crimes by initiating force against others?

___________________________________________________________________
Jon Galt
e-mail:  jongalt@pinn.net
website:  http://www.pinn.net/~jongalt/
PGP public key available on my website.
__________________________________________________________________

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In <3.0.16.19971118231927.0dc71f6e@pop.mindspring.com>, on 11/18/97 
   at 11:34 PM, Mikhael Frieden <mikhaelf@mindspring.com> said:

>At 06:53 PM 11/18/97 -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:
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>>I think that there is plenty of case law of extending constutional
>>protections to non-citizens. One that comes to mind were the rulings
>>against California inwhich the courts ruled the they were obligated to
>>provide schooling and social services to illegal aliens (a really fucked
>>rulling IMNSHO but if some good can come out of it no sense not making use
>>of it).

>        In a much more fundamental sense, if they were not given
>constitutional protections they really could be rounded up and bussed
>across the border. 

And this would be a BadThing(TM)??

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
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At 08:12 PM 11/18/97 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>At 10:34 PM -0700 11/18/97, Mikhael Frieden wrote:
>>At 06:53 PM 11/18/97 -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>
>>>I think that there is plenty of case law of extending constutional
>>>protections to non-citizens. One that comes to mind were the rulings
>>>against California inwhich the courts ruled the they were obligated to
>>>provide schooling and social services to illegal aliens (a really fucked
>>>rulling IMNSHO but if some good can come out of it no sense not making use
>>>of it).
>>
>>        In a much more fundamental sense, if they were not given
>>constitutional protections they really could be rounded up and bussed
>>across the border.
>
>And what would be wrong with this?
>
>If they're not citizens, and not on a valid visa, they have no legal right
>to be in the U.S.
>
I think the most important constitutional protection is that of
due-process.  Thus we need to have a court proceeding to determine that
they really are in the US without a valid visa before we can bus them out.  

>(At a more abstract level, I support the idea of completely open borders,
>provided we end all forcible contributions to welfare, medical care,
>schools, job quotas, etc. But so long as taxpayers are paying 60% of
>everything earned, as I am, to support others, the rules about entry to the
>U.S. must be enforced.)
>
>Ironically, the authorities are refusing to enforce the immigration laws.
>This is why the militias here in California have been forced to deal with
>illegal immigrants in the only way left to them. (There's a hunt in
>Imperial Valley this coming Saturday.)
>
>--Tim May
>
>The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
>---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
>Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
>ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
>W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
>Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
>"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."
>
>
>
>
>


                             -Colin