Superdistribution development/release

Yet Another Watermark...

Anyone wanna take bets on how long before it's broken, or at least easily
pirated?


Cheers,
Bob Hettinga

--- begin forwarded text


From: "Blair Anderson" <blair@technologist.com>
To: "dcsb@ai.mit.edu" <dcsb@ai.mit.edu>
Cc: "Peter Cassidy" <pcassidy@triarche.com>, "Brad Cox" <bcox@gmu.edu>
Date: Thu, 04 Dec 97 12:58:05 +1300
Priority: Normal
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: Superdistribution development/release
Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: "Blair Anderson" <blair@technologist.com>

Silver Bullet for Digital Publishing Arrives TragoeS Announces General
Availability of RigthsMarket(TM)

 PR Newswire - December 02, 1997 16:10
 TRGO. %ENT %MLM V%PRN P%PRN

CALGARY, Dec. 2 /CNW-PRN/ - RightsMarket hits the bull's-eye business
opportunity of the 21st century - electronic commerce through digital
publishing on the Internet for the $71.3 billion (US) publishing
industry (Value-Line, April 11/May 20/May 30, 1997).

``RightsMarket harnesses powerful economic forces that will show people
the money in digital document publishing on the Internet,'' stated
Lindsay Moir, President of TragoeS Inc., during the company's news
conference November 18th at COMDEX `97, Las Vegas. ``With RightsMarket
suppliers of digital documents will be paid and 99% of the revenue loss
due to piracy will be eliminated.''

TragoeS has successfully implemented the Superdistribution paradigm in
RightsMarket. Superdistribution tracks usage rather than possession and
is recognised as the best approach to selling digital property (digital
versions of text, data, knowledge, pictures, music, videos, etc.) on the
Internet. Pricing of RightsMarket is $50,000 (US) plus integration,
support fees, and annual license renewal fees.  Unique RightsMarket
features include:

Persistent Cryptographic Wrappers (RightsWrapper) - No matter where the
digital document (financial newsletter, educational test, minutes from a
court proceeding, sensitive health care records, etc.) goes, no matter
how it gets there, whether it is used and then subsequently
redistributed, etc. the document is always encrypted.  It is never left
decrypted and exposed even while it is being viewed.

Rights Marketing `back office' (RightsServer) - Allows marketers to set
the terms and conditions of use for the digital property.  Features
include support for the newly announced international Digital Object
Identifier (DOI) publishing standard.

Fault Tolerant Middleware (RightsConnection) - Provides a secure link to
the `back office' from the user's desktop.  As well, there is no
requirement to be connected full time to the Internet in order to view
the digital document.

Metering and Enforcement (RightsClient) - Provides decryption services,
meters use, and sends usage information to the RightsServer via secure
middleware.

Acrobat(TM) Trusted Tool plug-ins - Makes Acrobat, the world's most
popular digital publishing tool from Adobe Systems Incorporated(C),
ready for prime time digital document economic transactions on the
Internet. With a plug-in for the Exchange and Reader, customers can
encrypt documents and have a trusted player for viewing content.

Shane Hayes, TragoeS' Vice President, Customer Implementation will be
presenting at The Digital Object Identifier (DOI) Technology Forum
Wednesday, December 10, 1997 in New York City.  The DOI is an important
emerging international standard for identification of published material
online. It forms the foundation layer of a set of technologies that will
enable commerce in published material on the Internet so that copyright
is protected, content creators can be compensated for their work, and
consumers can benefit from technology that is sophisticated, yet
seamless and easy to use.  The International DOI Foundation (IDF), a
non-profit organization established to administer the DOI standard, is
looking to technology vendors to implement the necessary technology
components and integrate them into secure electronic publishing
solutions for the IDF's constituency: the worldwide publishing industry
and beyond.

In April 1998 in Washington, DC, TragoeS Inc. will participate in a
three day conference sponsored by the Library of Congress, the
Association of American Publishers (AAP), and the University of
Virginia. The conference is titled ``Exploring the New Media - The
Paradigm Shift in Publishing: >From Book to Bytes''.  TragoeS Vice
President, Marketing and Sales, Fred Yee, will sit on a panel discussing
`Solutions to Copyright Protection in Cyberspace'.

TragoeS Inc., established in 1993, is a Canadian high technology company
specializing in software products and services that support financial
transactions.  Its product, RightsMarket is the solution for the
protection, metering and payment of digital intellectual property.
TragoeS is a public company reporting in Alberta and Ontario and is
listed on the Canadian Dealing Network (CDN TRGO).

The Canadian Dealing Network or other regulatory authorities have
neither approved nor disapproved of the information contained herein.
SOURCE:  TragoeS Inc.

     /CONTACT: Lindsay Moir, President, TragoeS Inc., (403) 571-1835,
Fax:
(403) 571-1838, Email: moirl(at)tragoes.com, Website: www.tragoes.com,
www.rightsmarket.com or Mr. Peter Taylor, Investor Relations, (416)
368-0121,
Fax: (416) 368-9175/
     (TRGO.)


Blair Anderson  (Blair@technologist.com)

International Consultant in Electronic Commerce,
Encryption and Electronic Rights Management

   "Techno Junk and Grey Matter"  (HTTP://WWW.NOW.CO.NZ [moving servers,
currently inactive])
   50 Wainoni Road, Christchurch, New Zealand

          phone 64 3 3894065
          fax     64 3 3894065

Member 	Digital Commerce Society of Boston

---------------------------- Caught in the Net for 25 years
----------------------------



For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
"dcsb-request@ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".

--- end forwarded text



-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>

At 5:16 AM +0100 12/4/1997, Lucky Green wrote:
>On Wed, 3 Dec 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>> 
>> Persistent Cryptographic Wrappers (RightsWrapper) - No matter where the
>> digital document (financial newsletter, educational test, minutes from a
>> court proceeding, sensitive health care records, etc.) goes, no matter
>> how it gets there, whether it is used and then subsequently
>> redistributed, etc. the document is always encrypted.  It is never left
>> decrypted and exposed even while it is being viewed.
>
>They have lost their mind. Since humans are notoriously bad at performing
>decryptions in their head in real time, whatever is sent to the display
>*must* be cleartext. Any competent programmer can grab it at that point.

Undoubetedly there will be attempts to create display chips with built-in decryption and special display and/or raster/vectorizing approaches which are comfortably viewed but are difficult to snap shot using "screen shooters" or simple capture hardware.  With the new USB and FireWire interface standards this isn't too far fetched.  All, as you say probably doomed to failure.

--Steve

Here an incentive: if anyone breaks this, I'll write an article about it
and another profiling the person who does.

When you have this kind of "encryption" scheme running on untrusted
hardware to which the user has access, it's doomed to fail. Even if it's
custom hardware, it'll probably be broken, but it'll just take longer.

-Declan


At 19:27 -0500 12/3/97, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>Yet Another Watermark...
>
>Anyone wanna take bets on how long before it's broken, or at least easily
>pirated?
>
>
>Cheers,
>Bob Hettinga
>
>--- begin forwarded text
>
>
>From: "Blair Anderson" <blair@technologist.com>
>To: "dcsb@ai.mit.edu" <dcsb@ai.mit.edu>
>Cc: "Peter Cassidy" <pcassidy@triarche.com>, "Brad Cox" <bcox@gmu.edu>
>Date: Thu, 04 Dec 97 12:58:05 +1300
>Priority: Normal
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Subject: Superdistribution development/release
>Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu
>Precedence: bulk
>Reply-To: "Blair Anderson" <blair@technologist.com>
>
>Silver Bullet for Digital Publishing Arrives TragoeS Announces General
>Availability of RigthsMarket(TM)
>
> PR Newswire - December 02, 1997 16:10
> TRGO. %ENT %MLM V%PRN P%PRN
>
>CALGARY, Dec. 2 /CNW-PRN/ - RightsMarket hits the bull's-eye business
>opportunity of the 21st century - electronic commerce through digital
>publishing on the Internet for the $71.3 billion (US) publishing
>industry (Value-Line, April 11/May 20/May 30, 1997).
>
>``RightsMarket harnesses powerful economic forces that will show people
>the money in digital document publishing on the Internet,'' stated
>Lindsay Moir, President of TragoeS Inc., during the company's news
>conference November 18th at COMDEX `97, Las Vegas. ``With RightsMarket
>suppliers of digital documents will be paid and 99% of the revenue loss
>due to piracy will be eliminated.''
>
>TragoeS has successfully implemented the Superdistribution paradigm in
>RightsMarket. Superdistribution tracks usage rather than possession and
>is recognised as the best approach to selling digital property (digital
>versions of text, data, knowledge, pictures, music, videos, etc.) on the
>Internet. Pricing of RightsMarket is $50,000 (US) plus integration,
>support fees, and annual license renewal fees.  Unique RightsMarket
>features include:
>
>Persistent Cryptographic Wrappers (RightsWrapper) - No matter where the
>digital document (financial newsletter, educational test, minutes from a
>court proceeding, sensitive health care records, etc.) goes, no matter
>how it gets there, whether it is used and then subsequently
>redistributed, etc. the document is always encrypted.  It is never left
>decrypted and exposed even while it is being viewed.
>
>Rights Marketing `back office' (RightsServer) - Allows marketers to set
>the terms and conditions of use for the digital property.  Features
>include support for the newly announced international Digital Object
>Identifier (DOI) publishing standard.
>
>Fault Tolerant Middleware (RightsConnection) - Provides a secure link to
>the `back office' from the user's desktop.  As well, there is no
>requirement to be connected full time to the Internet in order to view
>the digital document.
>
>Metering and Enforcement (RightsClient) - Provides decryption services,
>meters use, and sends usage information to the RightsServer via secure
>middleware.
>
>Acrobat(TM) Trusted Tool plug-ins - Makes Acrobat, the world's most
>popular digital publishing tool from Adobe Systems Incorporated(C),
>ready for prime time digital document economic transactions on the
>Internet. With a plug-in for the Exchange and Reader, customers can
>encrypt documents and have a trusted player for viewing content.
>
>Shane Hayes, TragoeS' Vice President, Customer Implementation will be
>presenting at The Digital Object Identifier (DOI) Technology Forum
>Wednesday, December 10, 1997 in New York City.  The DOI is an important
>emerging international standard for identification of published material
>online. It forms the foundation layer of a set of technologies that will
>enable commerce in published material on the Internet so that copyright
>is protected, content creators can be compensated for their work, and
>consumers can benefit from technology that is sophisticated, yet
>seamless and easy to use.  The International DOI Foundation (IDF), a
>non-profit organization established to administer the DOI standard, is
>looking to technology vendors to implement the necessary technology
>components and integrate them into secure electronic publishing
>solutions for the IDF's constituency: the worldwide publishing industry
>and beyond.
>
>In April 1998 in Washington, DC, TragoeS Inc. will participate in a
>three day conference sponsored by the Library of Congress, the
>Association of American Publishers (AAP), and the University of
>Virginia. The conference is titled ``Exploring the New Media - The
>Paradigm Shift in Publishing: >From Book to Bytes''.  TragoeS Vice
>President, Marketing and Sales, Fred Yee, will sit on a panel discussing
>`Solutions to Copyright Protection in Cyberspace'.
>
>TragoeS Inc., established in 1993, is a Canadian high technology company
>specializing in software products and services that support financial
>transactions.  Its product, RightsMarket is the solution for the
>protection, metering and payment of digital intellectual property.
>TragoeS is a public company reporting in Alberta and Ontario and is
>listed on the Canadian Dealing Network (CDN TRGO).
>
>The Canadian Dealing Network or other regulatory authorities have
>neither approved nor disapproved of the information contained herein.
>SOURCE:  TragoeS Inc.
>
>     /CONTACT: Lindsay Moir, President, TragoeS Inc., (403) 571-1835,
>Fax:
>(403) 571-1838, Email: moirl(at)tragoes.com, Website: www.tragoes.com,
>www.rightsmarket.com or Mr. Peter Taylor, Investor Relations, (416)
>368-0121,
>Fax: (416) 368-9175/
>     (TRGO.)
>
>
>Blair Anderson  (Blair@technologist.com)
>
>International Consultant in Electronic Commerce,
>Encryption and Electronic Rights Management
>
>   "Techno Junk and Grey Matter"  (HTTP://WWW.NOW.CO.NZ [moving servers,
>currently inactive])
>   50 Wainoni Road, Christchurch, New Zealand
>
>          phone 64 3 3894065
>          fax     64 3 3894065
>
>Member 	Digital Commerce Society of Boston
>
>---------------------------- Caught in the Net for 25 years
>----------------------------
>
>
>
>For help on using this list (especially unsubscribing), send a message to
>"dcsb-request@ai.mit.edu" with one line of text: "help".
>
>--- end forwarded text
>
>
>
>-----------------
>Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
>e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
>"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
>[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
>experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
>The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
>Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>

At 07:03 PM 12/03/1997 -0800, Brian W. Buchanan wrote:
>Should be relatively trivial to break the encryption, since it can't be
>over 40-bit (or 56-bit if the company joined the kiss-ass alliance).

Ahem.  Notice the dateline on the article.  Calgary.
Not a problem, eh?  Plenty of Canadian content in that one,
so they could even show it on TV if they wanted to.

>Probably just as easy or easier to disassemble the software or do some
>creative tweaking of Windows DLLs to intercept data.  

Sounds likely - they're not only planning to run it on machines
without vaguely secure hardware, they're planning to run it
on machines without operating systems - they'll probably use Win95.
With NT, you'd at least need to look for bugs or design flaws
or other ways to lie to the operating system, since there _is_ one :-)
95 may not be as fragile as Win3.1, but it's still no protection.

On the other hand, if they can inhibit mass piracy, they're
ahead of the game, probably far enough to rack up some sales.

And even if their solution is a total technical crock,
it's a crock a bunch of people are trying to develop,
and it can be used as an argument to lawmakers that they don't
need to introduce draconian new legislation to "solve" the
copyright problems because we're doing it technically -
though of course lawmakers have figured out that this gives them
the choice between being visibly obsolete or writing
clueless legislation to regulate the new technology as well as the old....

				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639

On Wed, 3 Dec 1997, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> 
> Here an incentive: if anyone breaks this, I'll write an article about it
> and another profiling the person who does.
> 
> When you have this kind of "encryption" scheme running on untrusted
> hardware to which the user has access, it's doomed to fail. Even if it's
> custom hardware, it'll probably be broken, but it'll just take longer.

Should be relatively trivial to break the encryption, since it can't be
over 40-bit (or 56-bit if the company joined the kiss-ass alliance).
Probably just as easy or easier to disassemble the software or do some
creative tweaking of Windows DLLs to intercept data.  Custom hardware is
probably out due to cost and distribution problems, and even with it, it's
still possible to intercept data between the hardware and the software, or
the software and the OS.

-- 
Brian Buchanan                                      brian@smarter.than.nu

No security through obscurity!  Demand full source code!
4.4BSD for the masses - http://www.freebsd.org

At 2:01 PM -0800 12/4/97, stewarts@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>Sounds likely - they're not only planning to run it on machines
>without vaguely secure hardware, they're planning to run it
>on machines without operating systems - they'll probably use Win95.
>With NT, you'd at least need to look for bugs or design flaws
>or other ways to lie to the operating system, since there _is_ one :-)
>95 may not be as fragile as Win3.1, but it's still no protection.

Note that, if the person who has the authority to modify the code of the
operating system wants to intercept the data, even a "real" OS can be
easily modified.  Since with personally owned systems, that person is the
owner, there is very little protection the OS can give to these kinds of
copyright enforcement systems.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz       | One party wants to control | Periwinkle -- Consulting
(408)356-8506     | what you do in the bedroom,| 16345 Englewood Ave.
frantz@netcom.com | the other in the boardroom.| Los Gatos, CA 95032, USA

Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> Here an incentive: if anyone breaks this, I'll write an article about it
> and another profiling the person who does.
> 
> When you have this kind of "encryption" scheme running on untrusted
> hardware to which the user has access, it's doomed to fail. Even if it's
> custom hardware, it'll probably be broken, but it'll just take longer.

  I-ay et-bay ou-yay an't-cay eak-bray is-thay essage-may.

  For a limited time (ACT NOW!) I am offering shares in my new
encryption ompany-cay that has developed an unbreakable new
pig-latin technology.
  Rumors that I acquired this technology by buying out DataETRetch
are completely unfounded.

Uth-trayOnger-May

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v04002712b0aba8bd0101@[204.134.5.28]>, on 12/03/97 
   at 07:27 PM, Robert Hettinga <rah@shipwright.com> said:

>It is never left
>decrypted and exposed even while it is being viewed.

LOL!! I guess they require the use of that crypto-crainial inplant.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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At 07:27 PM 12/3/97 -0500, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>Yet Another Watermark...

[snip]

>From: "Blair Anderson" <blair@technologist.com>

[snip]

>Persistent Cryptographic Wrappers (RightsWrapper) - No matter where the
>digital document (financial newsletter, educational test, minutes from a
>court proceeding, sensitive health care records, etc.) goes, no matter
>how it gets there, whether it is used and then subsequently
>redistributed, etc. the document is always encrypted.  It is never left
>decrypted and exposed even while it is being viewed.

[snip]

>Metering and Enforcement (RightsClient) - Provides decryption services,
>meters use, and sends usage information to the RightsServer via secure
>middleware.

"It is never left decrypted and exposed" but the software "Provides
decryption services."  Doesn't this sound oxymoronic?  These guys need
help.

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Version: PGP for Business Security 5.5

iQA/AwUBNIYpAcJF0kXqpw3MEQIZ3QCfdwaVPxlD0B94hELCctja2VYScEQAnjut
IzSWyLdnnbougFr6qKA+1WYZ
=1mk9
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


Jonathan Wienke

PGP Key Fingerprints:
7484 2FB7 7588 ACD1  3A8F 778A 7407 2928
3312 6597 8258 9A9E D9FA  4878 C245 D245 EAA7 0DCC

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
that ye were our countrymen."
-- Samuel Adams

"Stupidity is the one arena of of human achievement where most people
fulfill their potential."
-- Jonathan Wienke

Never sign a contract that contains the phrase "first-born child."

RSA export-o-matic:
print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<>
)]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.3.32.19971203195235.006e7318@popd.netcruiser>, on 12/03/97 
   at 07:52 PM, Jonathan Wienke <JonWienk@ix.netcom.com> said:


>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1

>At 07:27 PM 12/3/97 -0500, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>>Yet Another Watermark...

>[snip]

>>From: "Blair Anderson" <blair@technologist.com>

>[snip]

>>Persistent Cryptographic Wrappers (RightsWrapper) - No matter where the
>>digital document (financial newsletter, educational test, minutes from a
>>court proceeding, sensitive health care records, etc.) goes, no matter
>>how it gets there, whether it is used and then subsequently
>>redistributed, etc. the document is always encrypted.  It is never left
>>decrypted and exposed even while it is being viewed.

>[snip]

>>Metering and Enforcement (RightsClient) - Provides decryption services,
>>meters use, and sends usage information to the RightsServer via secure
>>middleware.

>"It is never left decrypted and exposed" but the software "Provides
>decryption services."  Doesn't this sound oxymoronic?  These guys need
>help.

I think the point they were trying to make was the data is not left in the
clear on the storage media (this is typical marketing droids at work). 

For practical reason data must be in the clear in memory at some point in
time. Also the data must be transferred into some type of peripheral so
the user can do somthing with the data (read text off a monitor, print a
document, listen to music, ...ect).

This is the biggest failings in these systems. Once the user has the
ability to decrypt the data the game is lost. One does not need to break
the crypto system as they give you the keys with the product!! 

Will this prevent John doe from giving a copy of the document to a
friend?? Nope as he will just give the friend the passphrase (or what ever
mechanism they use) along with the copy.

Will this prevent the Warez groups?? It may slow them down some but it
woun't get rid of them.

Will it stop commercial pirating?? HAH!! It will not even slow it down, a
minor inconvenience at best.


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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On Wed, 3 Dec 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

> For practical reason data must be in the clear in memory at some point in
> time. Also the data must be transferred into some type of peripheral so
> the user can do somthing with the data (read text off a monitor, print a
> document, listen to music, ...ect).
> 
> This is the biggest failings in these systems. Once the user has the
> ability to decrypt the data the game is lost. One does not need to break
> the crypto system as they give you the keys with the product!! 

Ut oh.  Now the government is going to protect us from the new Horseman,
copyright violators, by mandating diskless network computers that run
only government-approved software.  We can't let those awful hackers
unlawfully disassemble software for the purpose of stealing other data,
now can we?  After all, it's for the children... and this solves that
pesky strong crypto problem too.

-- 
Brian Buchanan                                      brian@smarter.than.nu

No security through obscurity!  Demand full source code!
4.4BSD for the masses - http://www.freebsd.org

At 12:55 AM 12/04/1997 -0600, "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net>
wrote:
>Evil Book Topic List
>====================
>
>Chemistry  -- could be used by "Terrorist"
>Physics    -- could be used by "Terrorist"
>Biology    -- could be used by "Terrorist"
>Mathematics -- could be used by "Terrorist" 

And you certainly wouldn't want to allow inflammatory
anti-government books with precise technical information in them
that could be used by terrorists,
	like "Fahrenheit 451"....

				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, stewarts@ix.netcom.com
Regular Key PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <Pine.BSF.3.96.971203215304.204C-100000@thought.calbbs.com>, on
12/03/97 
   at 09:56 PM, "Brian W. Buchanan" <brian@smarter.than.nu> said:

>On Wed, 3 Dec 1997, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>> For practical reason data must be in the clear in memory at some point in
>> time. Also the data must be transferred into some type of peripheral so
>> the user can do somthing with the data (read text off a monitor, print a
>> document, listen to music, ...ect).
>> 
>> This is the biggest failings in these systems. Once the user has the
>> ability to decrypt the data the game is lost. One does not need to break
>> the crypto system as they give you the keys with the product!! 

>Ut oh.  Now the government is going to protect us from the new Horseman,
>copyright violators, by mandating diskless network computers that run
>only government-approved software.  We can't let those awful hackers
>unlawfully disassemble software for the purpose of stealing other data,
>now can we?  After all, it's for the children... and this solves that
>pesky strong crypto problem too.

Yep see Electronics and Computer Science added to the Evil Book Topic
list:

Evil Book Topic List
====================

Chemistry  -- could be used by "Terrorist"
Physics    -- could be used by "Terrorist"
Biology    -- could be used by "Terrorist"
Mathematics -- could be used by "Terrorist" 

Not to mention the fact that if you have any equipment related to any of
these evil topics and you are not a state approved scientist automatically
elevates you to either "terrorist" or drug manufacture if not both.

Basically it is getting to the point where having an IQ greater than 100
is a crime (no doubt generated out of jealousy by those who work for the
State).

One has to wonder how far Edison would have gotten in times such as today.

"Beware the bureaucrats as they do far more damage than all the Hitlers
and Stalins combined."

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

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Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

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On Wed, 3 Dec 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:
> 
> Persistent Cryptographic Wrappers (RightsWrapper) - No matter where the
> digital document (financial newsletter, educational test, minutes from a
> court proceeding, sensitive health care records, etc.) goes, no matter
> how it gets there, whether it is used and then subsequently
> redistributed, etc. the document is always encrypted.  It is never left
> decrypted and exposed even while it is being viewed.

They have lost their mind. Since humans are notoriously bad at performing
decryptions in their head in real time, whatever is sent to the display
*must* be cleartext. Any competent programmer can grab it at that point.

-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"

At 5:51 pm -0500 on 12/6/97, Rabid Wombat wrote:


> Don't under-estimate Bob; he can factor large primes in his head instantly.

Nah. I don't have the attention span. :-).

Can't even do arithmatic in my head very well. Linear algebra before
LINPACK, or even spreadsheets, -- much less graphing calculators -- was
hell...

Cheers,
Bob

-----------------
Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox
e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'
The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/
Ask me about FC98 in Anguilla!: <http://www.fc98.ai/>

Don't under-estimate Bob; he can factor large primes in his head instantly.

quadraticsievemonger

On Thu, 4 Dec 1997, Lucky Green wrote:

> On Wed, 3 Dec 1997, Robert Hettinga wrote:
> > 
> > Persistent Cryptographic Wrappers (RightsWrapper) - No matter where the
> > digital document (financial newsletter, educational test, minutes from a
> > court proceeding, sensitive health care records, etc.) goes, no matter
> > how it gets there, whether it is used and then subsequently
> > redistributed, etc. the document is always encrypted.  It is never left
> > decrypted and exposed even while it is being viewed.
> 
> They have lost their mind. Since humans are notoriously bad at performing
> decryptions in their head in real time, whatever is sent to the display
> *must* be cleartext. Any competent programmer can grab it at that point.
> 
> -- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
>    "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"
> 
>