Re: Censorial leftists (Was: Interesting article)

At 05:16 PM 12/3/97 -0800, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>
>Libertarians are self-governors in both personal and economic matters. 
>They believe government's only purpose is to protect people from coercion
>and violence.  They value individual responsibility, and tolerate economic
>and social diversity.
>

Interestingly, New Jersey's recent Libertarian candidate (Sabrin) lost my
wife's vote when his own ads portrayed him as anti choice.

Several members of the religious right also call themselves libertarians.

Sometimes what is meant is freedom from interference in the market rather
than real freedom.

Jay

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At 06:38 AM 12/4/97 -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>An intriguing selection of NewSpeak being used here. The forcible 
ending
>of another humans life is wrong (add in the standard caveats for
>self-defence).

A fetus is not a human being. End of logic chain.

Proof:The defining characteristic of humanity is our recursive self-
awareness -- our ability to think and know we think. Consciousness, 
in other words. Consciousness exists as an emergent property of our 
immensely complex neural network. No neural network, no 
consciousness. No consciousness, no humanity.

A single cell is not conscious. It cannot be. It has no senses to 
receive information, no mind to process the information received. It 
cannot be considered human.

A newborn baby *is* conscious. Brainwaves from all parts of the brain 
register. It is human.

Therefore:At some point between conception and birth, the developing 
fetus crosses a line fron non-human (and thus, removable without any 
ethical worries whatsoever) to human (and thus, only removable under 
the normal conditions when it is proper to kill, such as a threat to 
the life of the host). This line can be defined by the beginning of 
detectable brain waves from the higher parts of the brain, which 
usually occur around the sixth month or so. At this point, 
consciousness -- and thus humanity -- has begun. It is only at this 
point that the fetus has become a rights-possessing organism.


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In <1.5.4.32.19971204114530.006ef8dc@idt.net>, on 12/04/97 
   at 06:45 AM, Jay Holovacs <holovacs@idt.net> said:


>At 05:16 PM 12/3/97 -0800, Declan McCullagh wrote:

>>
>>Libertarians are self-governors in both personal and economic matters. 
>>They believe government's only purpose is to protect people from coercion
>>and violence.  They value individual responsibility, and tolerate economic
>>and social diversity.
>>

>Interestingly, New Jersey's recent Libertarian candidate (Sabrin) lost my
>wife's vote when his own ads portrayed him as anti choice.

<sigh> Do I really want to start this thread up ....

An intriguing selection of NewSpeak being used here. The forcible ending
of another humans life is wrong (add in the standard caveats for
self-defence). When it is a planed event it is called Murder. No society
in the history of mankind has permitted unrestricted murder of fellow
members of society on such superficial excuses of inconvenience.

To call this murder "choice" just doesn't pass the straight face test. It
is on the same level as calling what the Germans did to the Jews "choice".

>Several members of the religious right also call themselves libertarians.

>Sometimes what is meant is freedom from interference in the market rather
>than real freedom.

While such superficial labeling may make it easier for you and your wife
to sleep at night it has nothing to do with the issue at hand. This is
neither a religious issue nor a left-right issue any more than theft is.

Nothing inconsistent with being a Libertarian and anti Murder.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
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At 08:16 AM 12/4/97 -0500, tom wrote:
>> 
>> Nothing inconsistent with being a Libertarian and anti Murder.

Was this capital punishment or abortion or animal rights?  

Wish the left/right PR people would keep their damn terms separate...


:-)





------------------------------------------------------------
      David Honig                   Orbit Technology
     honig@otc.net                  Intaanetto Jigyoubu

Information is a dense, colorless, odorless material readily transmitted
across empty space and arbitrary boundaries by shaking charged particles.

> <sigh> Do I really want to start this thread up ....

No, you don't.  The pro-choice/pro-life argument is off-topic for
fight-censorship, and presumably also for cypherpunks (though I
don't read that list, and wouldn't presume to speak for them).
If people want to argue this point, please do it somewhere else.

-- Jeffrey T. Hutzelman (N3NHS) <jhutz+@cmu.edu>
   Carnegie Mellon University - Pittsburgh, PA
   I don't speak for CMU.  Thankfully, they don't speak for me either.
   Oh - and I'm not a lawyer, either...

William H. Geiger II writes:
> 
> 
> In <1.5.4.32.19971204114530.006ef8dc@idt.net>, on 12/04/97 
>    at 06:45 AM, Jay Holovacs <holovacs@idt.net> said:
> 
> 
> >At 05:16 PM 12/3/97 -0800, Declan McCullagh wrote:
> 
> >>
> >>Libertarians are self-governors in both personal and economic matters. 
> >>They believe government's only purpose is to protect people from coercion
> >>and violence.  They value individual responsibility, and tolerate economic
> >>and social diversity.
> >>
> 
> >Interestingly, New Jersey's recent Libertarian candidate (Sabrin) lost my
> >wife's vote when his own ads portrayed him as anti choice.
> 
> <sigh> Do I really want to start this thread up ....
> 
> An intriguing selection of NewSpeak being used here. The forcible ending
> of another humans life is wrong (add in the standard caveats for
> self-defence). When it is a planed event it is called Murder. No society
> in the history of mankind has permitted unrestricted murder of fellow
> members of society on such superficial excuses of inconvenience.
> 
> To call this murder "choice" just doesn't pass the straight face test. It
> is on the same level as calling what the Germans did to the Jews "choice".
> 
> >Several members of the religious right also call themselves libertarians.
> 
> >Sometimes what is meant is freedom from interference in the market rather
> >than real freedom.
> 
> While such superficial labeling may make it easier for you and your wife
> to sleep at night it has nothing to do with the issue at hand. This is
> neither a religious issue nor a left-right issue any more than theft is.
> 
> Nothing inconsistent with being a Libertarian and anti Murder.
> 

Semantics.

When does a piece of tissue become a human being? When is it a 'life'?

First define your terms. Then talk about murder.

Tom

-- 
 Tom Gillman, Unix/AIX/Solaris/IRIX    |"Personally, I have always found the
 Administrator-type Weenie For Hire    |First Amendment to be a little irksome
 (404) 713-5189 <-- NEW PHONE #        |and a nuisance" Patrick A. Townson,
                   tom@empire.net      |moderator, comp.dcom.telecom
 Don't even *think* that I speak for empire.net, Dave does that.
  key to UNIX: echo '16i[q]sa[ln0=aln100%Pln100/snlbx]sbA0D4D465452snlbxq'|dc

At 07:53 AM 12/4/97 -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>Who knows maybe the pro-choice crowd *does* approve of a doctor taking a
>big pair of pliers, crushing the skull then ripping the arms and legs off
>a 6mo old then pulling out the shop vac to clean up the mess?

Yes, if that's what the pros think is the appropriate method when a person
decides to off their fetus.  

The sun supplies 1 Kwtt/m^2, peak.  How many people can you feed on that
before
you get a war/famine/plague?   Perhaps you prefer adult war to infanticide.
A matter of taste.  

Cultures that really have to deal with this, unlike your own (for now),
generally choose infanticide.    









------------------------------------------------------------
      David Honig                   Orbit Technology
     honig@otc.net                  Intaanetto Jigyoubu

Information is a dense, colorless, odorless material readily transmitted
across empty space and arbitrary boundaries by shaking charged particles.

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In <3.0.5.32.19971204105615.00853870@206.40.207.40>, on 12/04/97 
   at 01:56 PM, David Honig <honig@otc.net> said:

>At 07:53 AM 12/4/97 -0600, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>>Who knows maybe the pro-choice crowd *does* approve of a doctor taking a
>>big pair of pliers, crushing the skull then ripping the arms and legs off
>>a 6mo old then pulling out the shop vac to clean up the mess?

>Yes, if that's what the pros think is the appropriate method when a
>person decides to off their fetus.  

>The sun supplies 1 Kwtt/m^2, peak.  How many people can you feed on that
>before
>you get a war/famine/plague?   Perhaps you prefer adult war to
>infanticide. A matter of taste.  

>Cultures that really have to deal with this, unlike your own (for now),
>generally choose infanticide.    

Only because the infants don't fight back.

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William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
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In <199712041316.IAA18769@Empire.Net>, on 12/04/97 
   at 08:16 AM, tom <tom@Empire.Net> said:

>Semantics.

>When does a piece of tissue become a human being? When is it a 'life'?

>First define your terms. Then talk about murder.

Hmmmm well the safest answer to this is at the point of conception though
I would imagine that it is hard for most to consider a couple of cells
life. :=/

Unfortunately trying to pin an exact point after conception leads into an
endless hair-splitting debate (should it be 1 week, 1 month, 3 months,
...). The current method of considering "birth" as the defining moment is
quite arbitrary as is "viability outside the womb" as science is ever
pushing this back. 

Considering we are talking life and death here don't you think it would be
wise to error on the side of caution?

I think everyone here would be outraged if the State started implementing
capital punishment without being sure that the person is guilty. "Sorry we
don't know if you did it or not but what the hell we'll gas you anyway."
It should be noted that many who are against capital punishment are
against it for that very reason. I have always beleived that executions
should be public. If a society can't stomach to watch what the government
does on their behalf then the governmnet shouldn't be doing it.

I find it quite odd that a society can condone the murder of a 6mo old
child so long as it is still in the womb yet would be horrified if the
same thing was done to a child in an incubator in the neo-natal ward.

Who knows maybe the pro-choice crowd *does* approve of a doctor taking a
big pair of pliers, crushing the skull then ripping the arms and legs off
a 6mo old then pulling out the shop vac to clean up the mess?

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
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