Re: Guns: H&K, G3, 7.62 v 5.56 [Guns] (fwd)

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On 1/3/98 4:05 PM, Ryan Lackey (rdl@mit.edu)  passed this wisdom:

>I've only seen bolt action .50s fired. They're not *too* heavy, and 
>from the amount of muzzle flash, noise, etc. it gave, I'd be as 
>comfortableusing it at 1000-1500 yards as I would a .308 at 
>600-1000 yards. Given proper concealment and the absence of anyone 
>looking directly at you when you fire, that is. Professional 
>sniping is a 2 man operation anyway --against a target that can 
>shoot back, you really want to have a spotter.  

I finally remebered where I saw it. In Tom Clancy's non-fiction book
"MARINE: A Guided Tour of a Marine Expeditionary Unit." On pages 75-77
(there is a good picture too) he details the history and developement
as well as the uses of the "Barrett M82A1A .50-cal special-purpose
sniper rifle." It is for all intents and purposes a Brownig M2 .50-cal
machine gun barrel/receiver set o a newly designed spring recoil
system to be fired from shoulder wit bipod. It is chambered for the
NATO standard .50-cal/12.7mm ammunition. It was developed by Ronnie
Barrett of Murfeesboro, Tennessee and further developement sponsored
by the USG and was first deployed by the CIA with the Mujahadeen in
Afgahnistan where they used it to make some Russian troops quite
miserable from a long way off. The sucess of it in Afghanistan force
the military to consider it. Nothing is said concerning other services
but it has been adopted by the USMC Force Recon for use by a three man
team. The gun is broken down into upper reciever, lower reciver, and
scope and ammo.

  There may be .50-cal bolt actions out there that are one man
carries, but the Barrett gun is a three man load. The gun is 57 inches
long and weighs 32.5 pounds, unloaded with no scope. The primary
mission of the gun is not man sniping, though I am sure it often has
been and will be used in that role, but its main aim is to long range
snipe and disable antennae, dishes, equipment, etc using the AP and
API ammunition.
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Brian B. Riley --> http://members.macconnect.com/~brianbr
 For PGP Keys  <mailto:brianbr@together.net?subject=Get%20PGP%20Key>

	"You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a 
    reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go around repeating
   the very phrases which our founding fathers used in their struggle for
   independence." -- Charles M. Beard

At 04:50 PM 1/3/98 -0500, Brian B. Riley wrote:

>  There may be .50-cal bolt actions out there that are one man
>carries, but the Barrett gun is a three man load. The gun is 57 inches
>long and weighs 32.5 pounds, unloaded with no scope. The primary
>mission of the gun is not man sniping, though I am sure it often has
>been and will be used in that role, but its main aim is to long range
>snipe and disable antennae, dishes, equipment, etc using the AP and
>API ammunition.

When I lived in Alaska I knew someone who built such a thing for hunting
bears. I never got to fire it, but it was supposed to have a kick like a
mule. (Even with the shock absorbing stock.)

The hardest part is getting the 50 cal ammo.  (He had his Federal firearms
license and was in the National Guard, so it was not too difficult for
him.) Getting AP and other special ammo would be doubly difficult.
(Non-specialty ammo could be reloaded as long as you could get molds and
primer caps.) 

I guess it depends on your military and/or black market connections.

---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
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Alan wrote:
> At 04:50 PM 1/3/98 -0500, Brian B. Riley wrote:
> The hardest part is getting the 50 cal ammo.  (He had his Federal firearms
> license and was in the National Guard, so it was not too difficult for
> him.) Getting AP and other special ammo would be doubly difficult.
> (Non-specialty ammo could be reloaded as long as you could get molds and
> primer caps.) 
> 
> I guess it depends on your military and/or black market connections.

I have seen what appeared to be .50 ammo (probably not AP) in gun stores.

	- Igor.

At 7:24 PM -0800 1/4/98, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>Alan wrote:
>> At 04:50 PM 1/3/98 -0500, Brian B. Riley wrote:
>> The hardest part is getting the 50 cal ammo.  (He had his Federal firearms
>> license and was in the National Guard, so it was not too difficult for
>> him.) Getting AP and other special ammo would be doubly difficult.
>> (Non-specialty ammo could be reloaded as long as you could get molds and
>> primer caps.)
>>
>> I guess it depends on your military and/or black market connections.
>
>I have seen what appeared to be .50 ammo (probably not AP) in gun stores.

Armor-piercing ammo, the common kind, is just steel-core ammo. This is
readily available in most calibers, esp. military calibers. (A less common
kind is "KTW" handgun ammo, which is under some recent restrictions. And
even less common, and almost certainly unavailable to the proles, are
"sabot" rounds, some with tungsten cores.)

Importation of steel-core ammo is under various restrictions. Klinton
recently blocked import of a lot of foreign 7.62x39 steel core ammo, on
nebulous grounds that they represented a threat to the ruling elite and
their police bodyguards.

But it's still widely available. Check the gun shows.

(There is little need for this, for even folks like us. We are not likely
to want to disable fleeing vehicles, etc. And even conventional lead-core
rifle rounds will cut through body armor easily, which is all I care about.)

--Tim May

The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

Tim May wrote:
> Armor-piercing ammo, the common kind, is just steel-core ammo. This is
> readily available in most calibers, esp. military calibers. (A less common
> kind is "KTW" handgun ammo, which is under some recent restrictions. And
> even less common, and almost certainly unavailable to the proles, are
> "sabot" rounds, some with tungsten cores.)

By the way, I keep hearing about these sabot rounds but do not know
what they actually are. Could someone please explain. Thank you.

> (There is little need for this, for even folks like us. We are not likely
> to want to disable fleeing vehicles, etc. And even conventional lead-core
> rifle rounds will cut through body armor easily, which is all I care about.)

Many people underestimate the power of most rifles.

	- Igor.

Igor Chudov @ home writes:
> 
> Tim May wrote:
> > Armor-piercing ammo, the common kind, is just steel-core ammo. This is
> > readily available in most calibers, esp. military calibers. (A less common
> > kind is "KTW" handgun ammo, which is under some recent restrictions. And
> > even less common, and almost certainly unavailable to the proles, are
> > "sabot" rounds, some with tungsten cores.)
> 
> By the way, I keep hearing about these sabot rounds but do not know
> what they actually are. Could someone please explain. Thank you.

A Sabot is a casing which goes around a bullet, allowing say
a .22 caliber bullet to travel properly down a .30 caliber barrel.
They're usually made of plastic and designed to fall away
from the bullet soon after it leaves the barrel.

It's a hack to get high(er) velocity out of an existing gun, or
to expand the range of available projectiles for a weapon.

I used to see Sabot rounds that were .22 caliber bullets
with a .30 caliber Sabot, in a .30-06 casing.  I think Remington
made them and they were available to the general public.
They were marketed for 'varmint' hunting, as an alternative
to buying a .25-06 or similar varmint rifle.


> > (There is little need for this, for even folks like us. We are not likely
> > to want to disable fleeing vehicles, etc. And even conventional lead-core
> > rifle rounds will cut through body armor easily, which is all I care about.)
> 
> Many people underestimate the power of most rifles.

Yes, and many people want to be able to buy a quick technological fix
to something (like shooting) which requires talent and/or practice to
become good at.

Just like buying a synthesizer doesn't instantly make one a musician, buying
a wonder gun doesn't immediately make one a crack shot.

Not that I'm accusing anyone in this discussion of having this tendency, just
pointing out that the best gun in many situations is the one that you
have run the most rounds through.

-- 
Eric Murray  Chief Security Scientist  N*Able Technologies  www.nabletech.com
(email:  ericm  at  lne.com   or   nabletech.com)          PGP keyid:E03F65E5

At 10:36 PM 1/4/98 -0600, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:

>By the way, I keep hearing about these sabot rounds but do not know
>what they actually are. Could someone please explain. Thank you.

They are a wooden round made by the dutch for firing into milling machines. 


---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|

At 8:36 PM -0800 1/4/98, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>Tim May wrote:
>> Armor-piercing ammo, the common kind, is just steel-core ammo. This is
>> readily available in most calibers, esp. military calibers. (A less common
>> kind is "KTW" handgun ammo, which is under some recent restrictions. And
>> even less common, and almost certainly unavailable to the proles, are
>> "sabot" rounds, some with tungsten cores.)
>
>By the way, I keep hearing about these sabot rounds but do not know
>what they actually are. Could someone please explain. Thank you.

Typically a dense projectile inside an outer projectile. (Sabot in French
means "shoe," the origin of course of "saboteur.") The outer projectile can
fall away, leaving the inner projectile to continue. The physics of this is
explained in ballistics sources.

This allows smaller projectiles to be launched out of larger bores. Thus,
high density projectiles can be launched out of .50 BMG barrels. Or large
tank barrels (as in the M-1 Abrams tank) can fire sabot projectiles.

(For example, smaller projectiles made of depleted uranium, which punch
through tank armor and then become liquid and incendiary on the inside of
the tank, killing all occupants in milliseconds.)

The term "sabot" is sometimes used interchangeably with "slug," espeically
with respect to shotguns.

It is also possible to use sabots to build a "two-stage" bullet, with a
smaller round firing from inside a sabot. 6000 fps velocities have been
reported. Or so I read.

As always, using the Web is the way to get such answers quickly. A DejaNews
search on "rec.guns  sabot" will turn up many interesting threads.
Especially the older data base.

>> (There is little need for this, for even folks like us. We are not likely
>> to want to disable fleeing vehicles, etc. And even conventional lead-core
>> rifle rounds will cut through body armor easily, which is all I care about.)
>
>Many people underestimate the power of most rifles.

Yep. Every rifle caliber other than .22 LR will penetrate ballistic vests.
Even with a vest rated to stop a .44 Magnum round, from a handgun, the
extra speed from a 16-inch carbine barrel is enough to defeat these vests.

(I have a handy little carbine, the Winchester Trapper, in .44 Magnum. Not
as much punch as an AR-15, but mighty handy.)

More and more "home invaders" (*) are wearing Kevlar body armor, so bear
this in mind.

(* Home invaders are usually gangs of several thieves who enter a home in
force, sometimes by kidnapping the owner and forcing him to let them in,
sometimes just by breaking down the doors. They tend to terrorize the
occupants, tie them up, rape the women, and then, increasingly, kill all
the occupants so as to leave no witnesses. And for "kicks." Of course,
liberals and gun grabbers would have us believe that it is not proper for
homeowners to have guns to defend themselves, that it is for the police to
respond to burglaries. People who think this way are delusional. And if
they go beyond their delusions and attempt to disarm homeowners forcibly,
they ought to be taken out and shot.)

--Tim May




--Tim May


The Feds have shown their hand: they want a ban on domestic cryptography
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^2,976,221   | black markets, collapse of governments.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the information superhighway."

At 09:24 PM 1/4/98 -0600, Igor Chudov @ home wrote:
>Alan wrote:
>> At 04:50 PM 1/3/98 -0500, Brian B. Riley wrote:
>> The hardest part is getting the 50 cal ammo.  (He had his Federal firearms
>> license and was in the National Guard, so it was not too difficult for
>> him.) Getting AP and other special ammo would be doubly difficult.
>> (Non-specialty ammo could be reloaded as long as you could get molds and
>> primer caps.) 
>> 
>> I guess it depends on your military and/or black market connections.
>
>I have seen what appeared to be .50 ammo (probably not AP) in gun stores.

I am surprised, but I am sure you are correct.  It has been quite a while
since I have spent time in gun shops.  (My expenditures on ammo is limited
to smaller calibers.  I tend not to look at other things because I cannot
afford what I want.)

---
|              "That'll make it hot for them!" - Guy Grand               |
|"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer:         |
| mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!"  | Ignore the man      |
|`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key  | behind the keyboard.|
|         http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/       |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com|