Driver Licenses

Recently had to renew my DL here in Florida. While we are not forced to give up our fingerprints (yet)we have a new little magnetic strip similar to those on a credit card or ATM card and I can see this as a way for the State to start holding more and more data about us on these I.D.'s (like fingerprints, criminal records, etc...  Coincidentally, that day when I went into my grocery store to get a six pack of brew, I got carded.  I handed my new little card over and the teller and rather than looking at my date of birth she started to swipe the damn thing through her credit card reader machine!  I stopped her, grabbed my DL back and told her to manually enter the date as they have always done.  When she explained that it is against store policy and that she 'had' to swipe any IDs that had the strip I got my keys outta my pocket and all but removed the strip from the back of my little nemesis. Handed it back to her and told her to swipe away; it is against MY policy to provide !
!
!
the store with my address. I don't want any damn pepsi coupons mailed to me each time I buy coke, or northern tissue coupons when I buy charmin. Nor do I want the store collecting information on how much beer I buy.

Sure, I want my alchohol purchases going to the Dept of Motor Vehicles and the other State departments...like hell.

My question is, how much information can be stored on these strips?

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <19980208194501.10692.qmail@nsm.htp.org>, on 02/08/98 
   at 07:45 PM, Anonymous <remailer@htp.org> said:

>Recently had to renew my DL here in Florida. While we are not forced to
>give up our fingerprints (yet)we have a new little magnetic strip similar
>to those on a credit card or ATM card and I can see this as a way for the
>State to start holding more and more data about us on these I.D.'s (like
>fingerprints, criminal records, etc...  Coincidentally, that day when I
>went into my grocery store to get a six pack of brew, I got carded.  I
>handed my new little card over and the teller and rather than looking at
>my date of birth she started to swipe the damn thing through her credit
>card reader machine!  I stopped her, grabbed my DL back and told her to
>manually enter the date as they have always done.  When she explained
>that it is against store policy and that she 'had' to swipe any IDs that
>had the strip I got my keys outta my pocket and all but removed the strip
>from the back of my little nemesis. Handed it back to her and told her to
>swipe away; it is against MY policy to provid!
> e !
>!
>the store with my address. I don't want any damn pepsi coupons mailed to
>me each time I buy coke, or northern tissue coupons when I buy charmin.
>Nor do I want the store collecting information on how much beer I buy.

>Sure, I want my alchohol purchases going to the Dept of Motor Vehicles
>and the other State departments...like hell.

>My question is, how much information can be stored on these strips?

My question is what is the best way to remove this information from the
cards?

A few passes over a strong magnet sufficient or should a chemical solvent
be used?


- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
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On Sun, 8 Feb 1998, William H. Geiger III wrote:
> My question is what is the best way to remove this information from the
> cards?

Making the mag stripe on a driver license unreadable by a POS terminal is
easy. A refrigerator magnet will suffice. There is only one problem:
chances are you then won't be sold any alcohol.

See, major chains, such as the Southland corporation [7/11], recently
installed POS terminals that are linked to the cash register. [This may
not have reached a particular reader's area yet, please don't reply with
"but my 7/11 down the corner does not do this"].

Unless a driver license has been swiped, the cash register will not permit
the clerk to ring up the sale. It doesn't matter how old you are, you can
be 80 years old and in a wheelchair, no government issued ID with working
mag stripe, no alcohol or tobacco products for you.

The clerk at my local 7/11 assured me the information captured would not
be forwarded to a central site. Yet. It appears the stores are installing
these systems to protect themselves against police sting "test buys", in
which the authorities take persons just days shy of their 21st birthday,
put theater makeup and/or a gray beard and wig on them and thus entrap
store clerks into selling controlled substances to minors.

As any fool can predict, the information captured will not remain local
for long. After all, the system is ideal for monitoring gun^H^H^H alcohol
purchases of parolees, tracking down deadbeat dads, etc.


-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"

Lucky Green writes:
> 
> On Sun, 8 Feb 1998, William H. Geiger III wrote:
> > My question is what is the best way to remove this information from the
> > cards?
> 
> Making the mag stripe on a driver license unreadable by a POS terminal is
> easy. A refrigerator magnet will suffice. There is only one problem:
> chances are you then won't be sold any alcohol.
> 
> See, major chains, such as the Southland corporation [7/11], recently
> installed POS terminals that are linked to the cash register. [This may
> not have reached a particular reader's area yet, please don't reply with
> "but my 7/11 down the corner does not do this"].

I have no idea if my local 7/11 does this.  I don't even know
where my local 7/11 is.  I do however find it interesting that they're
implementing this policy when there are still legally-issued non-mag-stripe
driver's licenses in circulation... like mine, issued in 1980
(extended many times) and valid til the end of this year.


> Unless a driver license has been swiped, the cash register will not permit
> the clerk to ring up the sale. It doesn't matter how old you are, you can
> be 80 years old and in a wheelchair, no government issued ID with working
> mag stripe, no alcohol or tobacco products for you.

Never mind that the CDL isn't supposed to be a citizen's ID badge.
 
> The clerk at my local 7/11 assured me the information captured would not
> be forwarded to a central site. Yet. It appears the stores are installing
> these systems to protect themselves against police sting "test buys", in
> which the authorities take persons just days shy of their 21st birthday,
> put theater makeup and/or a gray beard and wig on them and thus entrap
> store clerks into selling controlled substances to minors.
> 
> As any fool can predict, the information captured will not remain local
> for long. After all, the system is ideal for monitoring gun^H^H^H alcohol
> purchases of parolees, tracking down deadbeat dads, etc.

We're building Big Brother, one tiny step at a time.
I hear we're going to war against Oceania again next month.

-- 
Eric Murray  Chief Security Scientist  N*Able Technologies  www.nabletech.com
(email:  ericm  at  lne.com   or   nabletech.com)          PGP keyid:E03F65E5

At 12:00 AM -0800 2/9/98, Lucky Green wrote:

>See, major chains, such as the Southland corporation [7/11], recently
>installed POS terminals that are linked to the cash register. [This may
>not have reached a particular reader's area yet, please don't reply with
>"but my 7/11 down the corner does not do this"].
>
>Unless a driver license has been swiped, the cash register will not permit
>the clerk to ring up the sale. It doesn't matter how old you are, you can
>be 80 years old and in a wheelchair, no government issued ID with working
>mag stripe, no alcohol or tobacco products for you.

If this is consistently the case, then one approach is to wheel a cart up
to the checkout line with some alcohol....and a cart full of items from the
freezer and deli sections. (Some cartons of chicken salad, partly
"sampled," for example.)

If a U.S. Passport is not considered enough I.D., because it doesn't have
the Big Brother Inside magstripe, one walks away from the transaction.

"Oh, OK, you won't take my money. Bye!"

(I don't believe there are any laws saying a customer must separate his
purchases...if the store refuses to transact business with a customer, he
may leave.)

This leaves all that frozen food to be quickly returned to the shelves, and
the deli food, which probably cannot be returned. (Depends on store and
health department policy.)

I wish no ill will toward merchants, but implementing a Big Brother Inside
tracking policy carries some real costs.

Lucky didn't want us to reply with anecdotes, but I have to note that many,
many people will inevitably not have the type of cards Lucky refers to.
Visitors, tourists, residents of other states, etc. This would all be lost
revenue to stores. I thus question the "universality" of Southland's plans.
Perhaps only those who "look under 26" (which is what the signs say) will
be "striped carded."

>The clerk at my local 7/11 assured me the information captured would not
>be forwarded to a central site. Yet. It appears the stores are installing
>these systems to protect themselves against police sting "test buys", in
>which the authorities take persons just days shy of their 21st birthday,
>put theater makeup and/or a gray beard and wig on them and thus entrap
>store clerks into selling controlled substances to minors.

Lucky is right that that "underage stings" are on the increase. Underage
persons, often in high school, beome self-righteour warriors in the War On
Demon Rum, and "narc out" their local shopkeepers.

Hey, it would serve these junior narcs right if, upon being carded and
being shown to be underage, a store owner made a citizen's arrest. Perhaps
putting the perp in the back freezer for a few hours would send a message.


>As any fool can predict, the information captured will not remain local
>for long. After all, the system is ideal for monitoring gun^H^H^H alcohol
>purchases of parolees, tracking down deadbeat dads, etc.

We are on the road toward a surveillance society.

Sadly, the ideas of David Chaum are more needed than ever, but his stuff is
essentially nowhere to be seen. (To reflect Lucky's comments back to him,
:-), spare us any citations of how Mark Twain Bank will let some people
open a cumbersome Digicash account.)

--Tim May


Just Say No to "Big Brother Inside"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^3,021,377   | black markets, collapse of governments.

How exactly can they require for the DL to be magnetized if only a few
states do that? My NE license is just a piece of photographed paper
encased in plastic. The only thing that "protects" it from forgery is a
"Don't Drink and drive" and "buckle up Nebraska" silvery warnings that can
be seen under certain angles. I don't see them changing it anytime
soon...thank gods for slow ppl ;) So...seems like there can and will be a
lawsuit against such practices.

---
Reality leaves a lot to the imagination.

jinn@inetnebr.com

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An entity claiming to be D'jinnie wrote:

: 
: How exactly can they require for the DL to be magnetized if only a few
: states do that? My NE license is just a piece of photographed paper
: encased in plastic. The only thing that "protects" it from forgery is a
: "Don't Drink and drive" and "buckle up Nebraska" silvery warnings that can
: be seen under certain angles. I don't see them changing it anytime
: soon...thank gods for slow ppl ;) So...seems like there can and will be a
: lawsuit against such practices.
: 

Nice to see D'Jinn jumping in ...

Here in the Peoples Republik ov NJ, the DL's have no magstrips.  But, 
being that it is NJ, they're probably not far away.  An interesting point
is that, when I moved (intrastate), the MVS sent a decal with the new
address to stick on the back.  No re-issue necessary, which is good, since
most bars/liquor stores will not accept licenses marked DUP.  But, they
will accept passports.

Also interesting is that PA has recently (within the past 2-4 years) been
issuing DL's with the driver's SSN.

Mark

- -- 
[] Mark Rogaski                   "That which does not kill me
[] wendigo@pobox.com                 only makes me stranger."
[]
[]      finger wendigo@deathstar.jabberwock.org for PGP key
[] anti spambot: postmaster@localhost abuse@localhost uce@ftc.gov

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On Mon, 9 Feb 1998, Mark Rogaski wrote:

: Here in the Peoples Republik ov NJ, the DL's have no magstrips.  But, 
: being that it is NJ, they're probably not far away.  An interesting point
: is that, when I moved (intrastate), the MVS sent a decal with the new
: address to stick on the back.  No re-issue necessary, which is good, since
: most bars/liquor stores will not accept licenses marked DUP.  But, they
: will accept passports.

I believe the sticker thing is standard practice...
: 
: Also interesting is that PA has recently (within the past 2-4 years) been
: issuing DL's with the driver's SSN.

That is standard practice in Missouri which I think is kinda silly but it
got me out of bringing my SSN card to my employers (which by then took
several spins through the washer :)
You have to request for the number to be different and CDL only allows it
on grounds of religious convictions.
I think I'll just form a sect...
Why are religions, no matter how kooky, respected so much??

---
Reality leaves a lot to the imagination.

jinn@inetnebr.com

D'jinnie asked:

> Why are religions, no matter how kooky, respected so much??
> 

Amendment I.  Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of
religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the
freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably
to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

At 02:20 PM 2/9/98 -0600, you wrote:
>
>How exactly can they require for the DL to be magnetized if only a few
>states do that? My NE license is just a piece of photographed paper
>encased in plastic. The only thing that "protects" it from forgery is a
>"Don't Drink and drive" and "buckle up Nebraska" silvery warnings that can
>be seen under certain angles. I don't see them changing it anytime
>soon...thank gods for slow ppl ;) So...seems like there can and will be a
>lawsuit against such practices.
>
>Reality leaves a lot to the imagination.

  this can work two ways... especially if the people you're trying
to work are not paying attention

  a friend of mine recently had his state license renewed.  i think
they have the procedure for doing fingerprints down pretty much so they
are inescapable if you want a new D/L, buuut...

  one of the things they make you sign at the bottom of the form is
an agreement that starts out "I agree to...".  my friend ran the form
through a scanner, changed "agree" to "disagree" and printed out his
own version of the form.  he handed it in and naturally the pencil-
pushers never gave it a second glance


-landon

On Mon, 9 Feb 1998, Tim May wrote:
> If a U.S. Passport is not considered enough I.D., because it doesn't have
> the Big Brother Inside magstripe, one walks away from the transaction.

Just as a data point, in the State of Oregon, an US passport is *not*
valid ID for alcohol purchases. Magstripe or no magstripe.

-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"

At 02:12 AM 2/10/98 +0100, Lucky Green wrote:
>On Mon, 9 Feb 1998, Tim May wrote:
>> If a U.S. Passport is not considered enough I.D., because it doesn't have
>> the Big Brother Inside magstripe, one walks away from the transaction.
>
>Just as a data point, in the State of Oregon, an US passport is *not*
>valid ID for alcohol purchases. Magstripe or no magstripe.
>
>-- Lucky Green <shamrock@cypherpunks.to> PGP v5 encrypted email preferred.
>   "Tonga? Where the hell is Tonga? They have Cypherpunks there?"

So I guess foreigners can't buy booze in Oregon at all.  

The new (last 10 years) passports don't have a mag stripe but do have the ICAO machine- reabable text string including a replay of the Passport info together with checksum digits.  There is also space for a National ID Number for those countries which have one but it is blank on US passports since we don't have a national ID.

DCF

At 09:00 AM 2/9/98 +0100, Lucky Green wrote:
>The clerk at my local 7/11 assured me the information captured would not
>be forwarded to a central site. Yet. It appears the stores are installing
>these systems to protect themselves against police sting "test buys", in
>which the authorities take persons just days shy of their 21st birthday,
>put theater makeup and/or a gray beard and wig on them and thus entrap
>store clerks into selling controlled substances to minors.

The original stings were done by young-looking cops, but a few
judges (maybe just New York, maybe Federal?  it's been a while)
threw them out - if the cop is 24, then it wasn't selling to a minor,
so it wasn't a crime or necessarily even a liquor license violation.
So the cops need to hire kids (and for tobacco stings, minors.)
This gets into the interesting legal question of whether you can
insist that the decoys be prosecuted.

>As any fool can predict, the information captured will not remain local
>for long. After all, the system is ideal for monitoring gun^H^H^H alcohol
>purchases of parolees, tracking down deadbeat dads, etc.

Yup.  It's really annoying to have to give the California DMV lots of
personal information about myself so they can track down deadbeat dads,
given that I'm not even a dad, much less a deadbeat dad, and so they
can track down Mexicans who want to drive without citizenship papers,
and similar presumptions of potential guilt.


				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart@pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639

On Mon, 9 Feb 1998, Bill Stewart wrote:
: 
: Yup.  It's really annoying to have to give the California DMV lots of
: personal information about myself so they can track down deadbeat dads,
: given that I'm not even a dad, much less a deadbeat dad, and so they
: can track down Mexicans who want to drive without citizenship papers,
: and similar presumptions of potential guilt.

You're not required to be a citizen. You're not even required to be a
permanent resident. All you need is to be here legally for any length of
time. Some places won't check. Some require SSN cards, which can only be
issued to ppl who are here legally, regardless of work authorization
(since we all know SSN go way beyond original purpose ;)

---
Reality leaves a lot to the imagination.

jinn@inetnebr.com

At 01:49 AM 2/10/98 -0600, you wrote:
>On Mon, 9 Feb 1998, Bill Stewart wrote:
>: 
>: Yup.  It's really annoying to have to give the California DMV lots of
>: personal information about myself so they can track down deadbeat dads,
>: given that I'm not even a dad, much less a deadbeat dad, and so they
>: can track down Mexicans who want to drive without citizenship papers,
>: and similar presumptions of potential guilt.
>
>You're not required to be a citizen. You're not even required to be a
>permanent resident. All you need is to be here legally for any length of
>time. Some places won't check. Some require SSN cards, which can only be
>issued to ppl who are here legally, regardless of work authorization
>(since we all know SSN go way beyond original purpose ;)

CA has occasionally demanded citizenship papers to get a driver's license,
because a few politicians want to harass the large numbers of Mexicans who 
live here without papers.  They weren't demanding them when I got my
license 4 years ago, because they'd just been hassled in court,
and this time when I renewed the clerk said the main reason the state
mails licenses centrally instead of just printing them at the DMV
is so they can check all the data with the INS.

If you're driving a car here with Sonora plates and you've got a
Mexican license with a Sonora address, the CA cops can't bust you
for it, though they can ask stuff like what you're doing here.
But if you're parking the car on the street for more than 2 months
(it may be 1 month?) with Sonora plates, they can bust you for
not having California plates, even though you can't get them,
and for not having a California license, even though you can't get one.
Just as they can for still having Jersey plates on your car.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart@pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639

> Yup.  It's really annoying to have to give the California DMV lots of
> personal information about myself so they can track down deadbeat dads,
> given that I'm not even a dad, much less a deadbeat dad, and so they
> can track down Mexicans who want to drive without citizenship papers,
> and similar presumptions of potential guilt.

Actually, thanks to NAFTA, the Mexicans can drive without citizenship
papers, and they don't have to give the California DMV shit.  All they
need is a valid mexican driver license and they can drive in the US.

At 02:52 AM 2/10/98 +0100, Anonymous wrote:
>> Yup.  It's really annoying to have to give the California DMV lots of
>> personal information about myself so they can track down deadbeat dads,
>> given that I'm not even a dad, much less a deadbeat dad, and so they
>> can track down Mexicans who want to drive without citizenship papers,
>> and similar presumptions of potential guilt.
>
>Actually, thanks to NAFTA, the Mexicans can drive without citizenship
>papers, and they don't have to give the California DMV shit.  All they
>need is a valid mexican driver license and they can drive in the US.

NAFTA has nothing to do with it.  You've always been able to drive with a foreign license.

DCF

> Coincidentally, that day when I went into my grocery store to get a six
> pack of brew, I got carded.  I handed my new little card over and the
> teller and rather than looking at my date of birth she started to swipe
> the damn thing through her credit card reader machine! 
> I stopped her, grabbed my DL back and told her to manually enter the date
> as they have always done.  When she explained that it is against store
> policy and that she 'had' to swipe any IDs that had the strip I got my
> keys outta my pocket and all but removed the strip from the back of my
> little nemesis. Handed it back to her and told her to swipe away; it is
> against MY policy to provide the store with my address. I don't want any
> damn pepsi coupons mailed to me each time I buy coke, or northern tissue
> coupons when I buy charmin. Nor do I want the store collecting
> information on how much beer I buy.

Odd.  When I first got a card with the stripe, I was a little paranoid so
I took a bar magnet and erased it.  Actually, I don't know whether my
eraser worked because nobody has ever asked to swipe my card thru a
reader.  I got a wallet with a plastic fold-out so if someone asks to see
my id, I open my wallet and show it to them, then put it away.