Re: PLO censoring pro-Iraqi sentiments

>X-Sender: tcmay@mail.got.net
>Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 12:03:26 -0800
>To: Eric Cordian <emc@wire.insync.net>, cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
>From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
>Subject: Re: PLO censoring pro-Iraqi sentiments
>Sender: owner-cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
>Reply-To: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
>X-Loop: cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
>
[SHIT REMOVED]

>This is why I cheered to see the U.S. gets its tail kicked in Somalia and
>have to retreat in disgrace. Alas, the U.S. planners just looked for
>another war, one we could "win," and they found a bombed out Bosnia to be
>the perfect place to "restore our dignity."
>
>Amerika the Fascist.
>
>--Tim May
>
>

You know Tim, I respect most of what you write, and I respect you in that
you have your own free will and opinions and the right to express them, but
what you have forgotten in your anarchistic ravings is that PEOPLE DIED IN
SOMALIA, including a personal friend of mine.  They were all somebody's
son, brother, and friend.  These soldiers went where they were ordered to
go, as befits a soldier, and tried to do the job they were given and
accomplish the mission, and for that EVERY ONE OF THEM DESERVES   Y O U R
RESPECT.  I am quite sure the vast majority of them thought it was patently
stupid to go to Somalia in the first place, but a soldier follows orders,
legal ones, and tries to get the job done regardless of personal feelings.

The next time you "cheer to see the U.S. gets its tail kicked", why don't
you think about the American troops who lost their lives or were maimed, or
who were doing something they may have been personally and morally against,
but they chose to be professional soldiers, and instead of displaying
cowardice, they tried to do what was asked of them.  Think of the innocent
civilians who inevitably die in the conflicts started by the megalomaniacs
like Saddam Hussein.  If you want to blame someone, and you bellow
endlessly in every letter you write about blaming someone, why don't you
blame the politicians who start the wars, who run the countries and step
all over their own people, instead of the people who are made to do the
dirty work?

Your "cheering" was a blatant slap in the face to anyone who has ever
served in uniform, and my only hope is that you will think about who should
really deserve your ire next time before you so recklessly blurt it out.

A lot of people like what you have to say most of the time, including me,
but with the right to our freedom of speech comes a responsibility to speak
wisely, which is something we could all strive to be better at, don't you
think?

Eric Tune

Eric Tune writes:

> You know Tim, I respect most of what you write, and I respect you in
> that you have your own free will and opinions and the right to express
> them, but what you have forgotten in your anarchistic ravings is that
> PEOPLE DIED IN SOMALIA, including a personal friend of mine.  They were
> all somebody's son, brother, and friend. 

So were the 100,000 Iraqi military killed by Bush, and the 1,000,000
Iraqis of all ages killed by US sanctions.  So were the civilians
bulldozed into mass graves in Panama, so the country would look neat and
tidy for the arrival of the ReportWhores.

What the world needs now is not another mass killing of Iraqis by the
United States government.  What the world really needs now is a fifty
dollar weapon that sinks aircraft carriers.

> These soldiers went where they were ordered to go, as befits a soldier,
> and tried to do the job they were given and accomplish the mission, and
> for that EVERY ONE OF THEM DESERVES Y O U R RESPECT.  I am quite sure
> the vast majority of them thought it was patently stupid to go to
> Somalia in the first place, but a soldier follows orders, legal ones,
> and tries to get the job done regardless of personal feelings.

Most of them would probably follow "legal orders" to fire upon American
civilians too.  

> The next time you "cheer to see the U.S. gets its tail kicked", why
> don't you think about the American troops who lost their lives or were
> maimed, or who were doing something they may have been personally and
> morally against, but they chose to be professional soldiers, and instead
> of displaying cowardice, they tried to do what was asked of them. 

The universe does not view the lives of Americans as more valuable than
the lives of people murdered by Americans. 

> Think of the innocent civilians who inevitably die in the conflicts
> started by the megalomaniacs like Saddam Hussein.

You mean all those melted child car seats and scorched teddy bears on
George Bush's "Highway of Death" leading out of Kuwait? 

Unfortunately, for all the braying Americans do about freedom, Americans
can never be truly happy unless someone is telling them what to do, or
they are telling someone else what to do, or they are bombing someone for
not doing what they have told them to do. 

The only thing Americans understand is dead Americans.  The only thing. 

I've always believed that communications functions most effectively when
people are talked to in a language that they understand. 

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"

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on or about 980219:1407, in <3.0.5.32.19980219140712.007bda40@pop3.lvcablemodem.com>, 
    "Eric J. Tune" <paladin@lvcablemodem.com> was purported to have 
    expostulated to perpetuate an opinion:

>From: Tim May <tcmay@got.net>
>>
>>[SHIT REMOVED]

>>This is why I cheered to see the U.S. gets its tail kicked 
>>in Somalia and have to retreat in disgrace. Alas, the U.S. 
>>planners just looked for another war, one we could "win," 
>> and they found a bombed out Bosnia to be the perfect place 
>>to "restore our dignity."
>>
>>Amerika the Fascist.
>>
>>--Tim May
>>

Eric J. Tune wrote:

>You know Tim, I respect most of what you write, and I respect
>you in that you have your own free will and opinions and the
>right to express them, but what you have forgotten in your
>anarchistic ravings is that PEOPLE DIED IN SOMALIA, including a
>personal friend of mine.  They were all somebody's son, brother,
>and friend  [snip]
>
    my oldest son's LAR recon/black unit had been stood down for
    Somalia, gear turned in, etc.  we were finishing Christmas 
    dinner [two additional NCO's who did not live close enough
    to 29 Palms were also guests] --just about 4pm, the 'phone 
    rang...  I knew, and they knew. Bush had decided to go to 
    Somalia and the powers grabbed an always on standby high
    power unit: 21 LAV25s, etc.  vehicles and all were on C5s in
    14 hours. 

    having personally received those calls before does not
    prepare you for the call when it is _your_ son heading out
    for his first chance to stare the beast in the face and 
    stand it down...  or come home in a body bag.

Eric J. Tune wrote:

>The next time you "cheer to see the U.S. gets its tail kicked",
>why don't you think about the American troops who lost their
>lives or were maimed, or who were doing something they may have
>been personally and morally against, but they chose to be
>professional soldiers, and instead of displaying cowardice, they
>tried to do what was asked of them. [snip]
>
    escorting Bush was a piece of cake, but the brass figured 
    they had two of these special recon companies and ordered
    them to secure North Mogadishu --they did and were shipped 
    stateside; then Army's 10th Mountain got its ass kicked for
    some of the dumbest logistics planning, including the pickup 
    armor column getting lost, no water, and no night vision
    goggles...  then Uncle put its tail between its legs and
    came home.

    how do you think the all the families with sons, husbands,
    lovers, siblings, etc. felt with the spectacle of a dead
    (and initially unidentified pending notification of 
    kin) service man out there just doing his duty for
    his country is being dragged around the dirt streets of a
    shithole?  the boy's parents saw it on television before
    the Army could get a man out to their house to tell them 
    (yes, it is done in person).

    my _boy_ came home a changed _man_ after live ammo on live
    targets and no rubber bullets --and did what all returning  
    jarheads do after first blood --got married as soon as 
    possible.

Eric J. Tune wrote:

>Your "cheering" was a blatant slap in the face to anyone who has
>ever served in uniform. [snip]
>
    absolutely. misplaced criticism and a personal offense to me
    as well as all other servicemen.

    it is one thing to deplore the various wars, police actions,
    dirty tricks, etc. which the U.S. Presidents and spook shows
    are always using to defend "our" interests around the world 
    -it is another to criticize and ridicule the men who fight 
    and die. 

    I have no regrets for what I did, and did too well, but I
    sure as hell have regrets for whom it was done: total
    sleezeballs who have taken TR's maxim to mean: "speak loudly 
    and use a big stick" --it's only business, son.

>...with the right to our freedom of speech comes a
>responsibility to speak wisely..
>
    well, on this point, the thorn of what is "wisely" is 
    defined differently by everyone; freedom of speech is just
    that-- if we restrict Tim's, then we lose our own freedom.

        Tim gets to say his piece, 
        and we get to lump it      --or lump Tim.



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At 4:07 PM -0800 2/19/98, Attila T. Hun wrote:


>Eric J. Tune wrote:
>
>>Your "cheering" was a blatant slap in the face to anyone who has
>>ever served in uniform. [snip]
>>
>    absolutely. misplaced criticism and a personal offense to me
>    as well as all other servicemen.

"Personal offense"? Gee, I'm crushed. (Attila, you wrote such a nice rant
about fascist Amerika...then decided to be "offended" when your predictable
hot button was pressed: any criticism of the military and any cheering of
its defeats. So predictable.)

I'll repeat: I cheer when I see the U.S. swatted down in its foreign
adventures. While I don't necessarily with harm to specific soldiers,
they're just pawns in a geopolitical power game. Eggs have to be broken to
make omelettes, and sometimes planes have to be shot down, aircraft
carriers have to be sunk (my fondest wish for Operation Wag the Dog), and
soldiers have to be stuck by the pikes of the peasants (as in Somalia). War
is hell. Nothing new there.

To _not_ want the U.S. to be taught a lesson just because it means some
soldiers must die as part of the lesson (else there is no lesson, of
course) is to let the USG do anything it wants.

By the way, the same arguments--identical in all ways--about individual
sons (and, sometimes, daughters) dying in the cause of war can be used in
many other arenas. For example, no doubt the CIA agent killed in Athens
when his name was published in a newspaper had parents, perhaps a wife and
children. So? He was still a spy, and some folks angry at having
imperialist spies in their midst offed him. Rough justice.

And no doubt some government soldiers in Burma, killed by rebel forces,
also had mothers and fathers, blah blah blah.

Both of these examples have crypto connections:

- the rebel forces in Myanmar/Burma use PGP. Ergo, PGP is helping
"terrorists" kill government soldiers.

- the publication of lists of CIA and DIA agents via "whistleblowing
remailers" is expected to increase. Remailers _will_ be used by "enemies of
the U.S. government." On this one, Louis Freeh and I have  long been in
agreement, me for even longer than he's known what the issues are.

Get used to it. When Johhnie or Hans or Sergei goes to war, he may die. And
perhaps because of Cypherpunks technologies. All part of the scheme of
things.


>        Tim gets to say his piece,
>        and we get to lump it      --or lump Tim.
>

Another empty threat from Attila?


--Tim May




Just Say No to "Big Brother Inside"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^3,021,377   | black markets, collapse of governments.

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on or about 980219:1723, in <v0310280db1128853d74c@[207.167.93.63]>, 
    Tim May <tcmay@got.net> was purported to have 
    expostulated to perpetuate an opinion:

>At 4:07 PM -0800 2/19/98, Attila T. Hun wrote:

>>    absolutely. misplaced criticism and a personal offense to me
>>    as well as all other servicemen.

at 980219:1723, Tim May wrote:

>"Personal offense"?  Gee, I'm crushed.  (Attila, you wrote such
>a nice rant about fascist Amerika...then decided to be
>"offended" when your predictable hot button was pressed:  any
>criticism of the military and any cheering of its defeats.  So
>predictable.)
>
    No, Tim, not predictable --your cheers are misplaced.

    Amerika is fascist at best; we do not have the government
    my ancestors, and probably yours, fought to create 222 years
    ago. today's Federal Hamiltonian style central government 
    does not qualify as a republic, at best it is a plutocracy.

    No, my objection is _where_ you place your cheers. we need
    to bring down the fascists, not kill our fighting men, most
    of whom still believe in America the Beautiful, not the 
    cesspool you and I and the rest know it has become. we 
    almost had a military arrest of Clinton for treason in his
    first term, but a number of key generals and admirals were
    killed.

    turn your cheers at American defeats into jears to the heart
    of the problem in Washington.

    I'm not advocating a sapper, but somebody better wake the 
    serfs.

>Eggs have to be broken to make omelettes

    yes, but there is an unlimited supply of eggs in the minds
    of the politicians; they'll go on until they are gone, then
    shrug their shoulders and say: "we tried...."

    if the US suffers some really significant defeat, that will
    be the excuse for martial law and we will see more than the
    Admirality flag flying in every U.S. courtroom (courtesy of 
    FDR and 08 Mar 33). 

    If we run out of eggs, we will be overrun; and I may post
    a significant historical document, overlooked by all but a
    few, on that point.

    Amerika is fast heading towards moral bankruptcy because
    "it feels good" --just like the dog who licks his balls 
    because he can.

> aircraft carriers have to be sunk
>(my fondest wish for Operation Wag the Dog), 

    5,000 men to teach a whoring asshole like Clinton what?

    if Saddam, or friends, sinks a carrier, the asshole will
    nuke the middle east while every Joe Couch Potato screams 
    for blood --then what?
 
>War is hell.  Nothing new there.

    never was and never will be. and war should be avoided at
    all costs. 

    if the US was a good friend overseas instead of the greedy
    bastards and manipulators they have been most of this entire
    century, every country in the world would not hate the U.S. 
    --except maybe the Brits. Amerika has destabilized close to 
    90% of the world governments at one point of another in this
    century, including the Labour government preceding Thatcher.

    check the list of foreign policy failures in the mideast
    which I just posted.  the American fools put every one of
    the now anti-US bastards in power: Syria, Iraq, Libya,
    Jordon, and previously Iran, Egypt, and Lebanon. Britain
    kicked the Palestinians off the land they farmed since the
    diaspora --almost 2,000 years, and now the U.S props up both
    Israel and the PLO (half-heartedly, which is more than the
    rest of the Arabs do for Arafat, other than noise). The most
    stupid action after world war 2 was to permit Britain to
    establish Israel --only exceeded by our stupidity of
    continuing to support a pig like Bibbi.

    Amerika has made so many enemies overseas with its Pax 
    Americana policies that we do not have enough soldiers to
    be the world's policemen --and we should never have been
    in that position in the first place, except Amerika has
    always been the home of the free --the freedom to rape,
    pillage, and burn your fellow man, particularly if they
    are someplace else.

>To _not_ want the U.S. to be taught a lesson just because it
>means some soldiers must die as part of the lesson (else there
>is no lesson, of course) is to let the USG do anything it wants.
>
    no, the issue is to rectify the situation at the root: the
    cesspool. everyone one of us, regardless of our beliefs, is
    responsible for the meglomaniacs in our government. if those
    of us with supposed intelligence can not get Joe Couch 
    Potato off his ass --whose fault is it?  Clinton will get 
    them off their collective asses if an aircraft carrier goes 
    down --even if he scuttles it.

>Get used to it.  When Johhnie or Hans or Sergei goes to war, 
>he may die.  And perhaps because of Cypherpunks technologies. 
>All part of the scheme of things.
>
    doesn't need to be... 

    I am too well aware of what I have contributed first in
    black ops and then in technology until I got smart enough
    20+ years ago to refuse any direct military work. even so,
    it does not help withholding (but it feels good); high-tech 
    only kills more with less effort.

>        Tim gets to say his piece,
>>        and we get to lump it      --or lump Tim.
>
>Another empty threat from Attila?
>
    no, Tim, not at all, just a cheap pun!  someday maybe I'll 
    even be creative enough to coin a new "Dew Drop Inn"

    I'll defend to the death your right to say whatever you 
    wish; obviously, I also reserve the right to bitch! 


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At 2:07 PM -0800 2/19/98, Eric J. Tune wrote:

>>
>[SHIT REMOVED]
>


I think this item, and your other frothings, show why you should not be
taken seriously.

Once again, a lurker who has never posted any substantive ideas delurks to
foam and spew insults.

In any case, all of the arguments I have seen from you boil down to that
tired old chestnut:

"My country, right or wrong."

A good attitude for cannon fodder to have.  Not such a good attitude for
free men to have.

Time to add you to my ever-growing killfile.

--Tim May

Just Say No to "Big Brother Inside"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^3,021,377   | black markets, collapse of governments.

>>PEOPLE DIED IN SOMALIA, including a personal friend of mine. 
>> They were all somebody's son, brother, and friend  [snip]
>    my oldest son's LAR recon/black unit had been stood down for
>    Somalia, gear turned in, etc.  
...
>    how do you think the all the families with sons, husbands,
>    lovers, siblings, etc. felt with the spectacle of a dead

Sorry to hear about your friend, and I'm glad your son got back.
A friend of mine lives in Somalia about half the time,
except when his wife's tribe's over in Ethiopia.  They've been through
years of civil war, in a society that until the colonialists
took over was extremely free and relatively peaceful (for a bunch of 
semi-nomadic cattle herders armed to the teeth like pre-industrial Swiss;
they tend to have occasional short armed squabbles when the
normal social structures for peacefully resolving differences fail)
and the wars for control of the post-colonial government have
made it impossible for their economy to do well during drought.

Michael's friends were quite pleased at kicking the UN's butts,
and at kicking the US Army's butts, but they thought that even
if there hadn't been a civil war going on, the idea of trying to 
disarm Somalis is blatantly foolish - you'd have better luck
trying to disarm an NRA convention, where people carry guns for fun
rather than to protect their families and livestock like Somalis.
After all, most NRA members believe in Nations and Governments;
Somalis believe in their families and tribes and the Law,
and any "leader" who expects blind obedience from his followers
quickly finds out that nobody's following him.

...
>    absolutely. misplaced criticism and a personal offense to me
>    as well as all other servicemen.

Sending US soldiers in to do a fool's errand like that should
offend you even more.   And telling a free people that they should
give up the guns they protect their families with because
the UN will take care of protecting them is an offense to them.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart@pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639