Re: PLO censoring pro-Iraqi sentiments

>Eric Tune writes:
>
>> You know Tim, I respect most of what you write, and I respect you in
>> that you have your own free will and opinions and the right to express
>> them, but what you have forgotten in your anarchistic ravings is that
>> PEOPLE DIED IN SOMALIA, including a personal friend of mine.  They were
>> all somebody's son, brother, and friend. 
>
>So were the 100,000 Iraqi military killed by Bush, and the 1,000,000
>Iraqis of all ages killed by US sanctions.  So were the civilians
>bulldozed into mass graves in Panama, so the country would look neat and
>tidy for the arrival of the ReportWhores.
>
>What the world needs now is not another mass killing of Iraqis by the
>United States government.  What the world really needs now is a fifty
>dollar weapon that sinks aircraft carriers.
>
>> These soldiers went where they were ordered to go, as befits a soldier,
>> and tried to do the job they were given and accomplish the mission, and
>> for that EVERY ONE OF THEM DESERVES Y O U R RESPECT.  I am quite sure
>> the vast majority of them thought it was patently stupid to go to
>> Somalia in the first place, but a soldier follows orders, legal ones,
>> and tries to get the job done regardless of personal feelings.
>
>Most of them would probably follow "legal orders" to fire upon American
>civilians too.  

You ever served in the military?  Unless you've been under fire, you should
shut the fuck up about shit you know nothing about nor could comprehend.

>> The next time you "cheer to see the U.S. gets its tail kicked", why
>> don't you think about the American troops who lost their lives or were
>> maimed, or who were doing something they may have been personally and
>> morally against, but they chose to be professional soldiers, and instead
>> of displaying cowardice, they tried to do what was asked of them. 
>
>The universe does not view the lives of Americans as more valuable than
>the lives of people murdered by Americans. 

Listen up jerk, in case you didn't get any news during 1990, Iraq attacked
Kuwait, and murdered thousands of Kuwaitis.  "Don't start no shit and there
won't be no shit"... ever heard that, asshole?  America would have never
been involved if Iraq hadn't invaded Kuwait.  I was there, in a Bradley,
and we could have rolled all over Baghdad, especially after what the Iraqi
bastards did to the Kuwaitis, but it wasn't done. Unfortunately Saddam
Hussein stayed in power.  There will not be a shred of a chance for peace
in that region until he is DEAD.  I don't think air strikes are the answer
to this, and I think Clinton is a moron for his present policy, War is the
worst thing that man can do to other men, and there is no such thing as
"the good fight"... war is hell. Period.  Until you have been in a war, you
have no idea of what you are talking about.  But if you think that Iraq was
"more right" or better yet, "less wrong", you need a radical lobotomy, or
perhaps you've already had one.

>> Think of the innocent civilians who inevitably die in the conflicts
>> started by the megalomaniacs like Saddam Hussein.
>
>You mean all those melted child car seats and scorched teddy bears on
>George Bush's "Highway of Death" leading out of Kuwait? 

Evidently, you again know nothing of what the Iraqis did to the Kuwaitis on
their way in to Kuwait.  Get educated, shithead. 

>Unfortunately, for all the braying Americans do about freedom, Americans
>can never be truly happy unless someone is telling them what to do, or
>they are telling someone else what to do, or they are bombing someone for
>not doing what they have told them to do. 
>
>The only thing Americans understand is dead Americans.  The only thing. 

You sound like nothing more than disillusioned, spoiled, pompous asshole
when you presume to know what Americans "understand".  Your anarchistic
ravings only mark you for the idiot you are.

To everyone else besides Cordian who reads this, my apologies, but for all
it's failings, I still have pride in America... ...not for all the foreign
policy bullshit or the way the government fucks us over, or starts wars, or
sticks their collective nose in other countries business...but for the fact
that as a whole people, Americans still keep trying, everyday, to be a
better people. I'm proud of that.

Eric Tune

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In <3.0.5.32.19980219204255.007c3680@pop3.lvcablemodem.com>, on 02/19/98 
   at 08:42 PM, "Eric J. Tune" <paladin@lvcablemodem.com> said:


>>Eric Tune writes:
>>
>>> You know Tim, I respect most of what you write, and I respect you in
>>> that you have your own free will and opinions and the right to express
>>> them, but what you have forgotten in your anarchistic ravings is that
>>> PEOPLE DIED IN SOMALIA, including a personal friend of mine.  They were
>>> all somebody's son, brother, and friend. 
>>
>>So were the 100,000 Iraqi military killed by Bush, and the 1,000,000
>>Iraqis of all ages killed by US sanctions.  So were the civilians
>>bulldozed into mass graves in Panama, so the country would look neat and
>>tidy for the arrival of the ReportWhores.
>>
>>What the world needs now is not another mass killing of Iraqis by the
>>United States government.  What the world really needs now is a fifty
>>dollar weapon that sinks aircraft carriers.
>>
>>> These soldiers went where they were ordered to go, as befits a soldier,
>>> and tried to do the job they were given and accomplish the mission, and
>>> for that EVERY ONE OF THEM DESERVES Y O U R RESPECT.  I am quite sure
>>> the vast majority of them thought it was patently stupid to go to
>>> Somalia in the first place, but a soldier follows orders, legal ones,
>>> and tries to get the job done regardless of personal feelings.
>>
>>Most of them would probably follow "legal orders" to fire upon American
>>civilians too.  

>You ever served in the military?  Unless you've been under fire, you
>should shut the fuck up about shit you know nothing about nor could
>comprehend.

>>> The next time you "cheer to see the U.S. gets its tail kicked", why
>>> don't you think about the American troops who lost their lives or were
>>> maimed, or who were doing something they may have been personally and
>>> morally against, but they chose to be professional soldiers, and instead
>>> of displaying cowardice, they tried to do what was asked of them. 
>>
>>The universe does not view the lives of Americans as more valuable than
>>the lives of people murdered by Americans. 

>Listen up jerk, in case you didn't get any news during 1990, Iraq
>attacked Kuwait, and murdered thousands of Kuwaitis.  "Don't start no
>shit and there won't be no shit"... ever heard that, asshole?  America
>would have never been involved if Iraq hadn't invaded Kuwait.  I was
>there, in a Bradley, and we could have rolled all over Baghdad,
>especially after what the Iraqi bastards did to the Kuwaitis, but it
>wasn't done. Unfortunately Saddam Hussein stayed in power.  There will
>not be a shred of a chance for peace in that region until he is DEAD.  I
>don't think air strikes are the answer to this, and I think Clinton is a
>moron for his present policy, War is the worst thing that man can do to
>other men, and there is no such thing as "the good fight"... war is hell.
>Period.  Until you have been in a war, you have no idea of what you are
>talking about.  But if you think that Iraq was "more right" or better
>yet, "less wrong", you need a radical lobotomy, or perhaps you've already
>had one.

>>> Think of the innocent civilians who inevitably die in the conflicts
>>> started by the megalomaniacs like Saddam Hussein.
>>
>>You mean all those melted child car seats and scorched teddy bears on
>>George Bush's "Highway of Death" leading out of Kuwait? 

>Evidently, you again know nothing of what the Iraqis did to the Kuwaitis
>on their way in to Kuwait.  Get educated, shithead. 

>>Unfortunately, for all the braying Americans do about freedom, Americans
>>can never be truly happy unless someone is telling them what to do, or
>>they are telling someone else what to do, or they are bombing someone for
>>not doing what they have told them to do. 
>>
>>The only thing Americans understand is dead Americans.  The only thing. 

>You sound like nothing more than disillusioned, spoiled, pompous asshole
>when you presume to know what Americans "understand".  Your anarchistic
>ravings only mark you for the idiot you are.

>To everyone else besides Cordian who reads this, my apologies, but for
>all it's failings, I still have pride in America... ...not for all the
>foreign policy bullshit or the way the government fucks us over, or
>starts wars, or sticks their collective nose in other countries
>business...but for the fact that as a whole people, Americans still keep
>trying, everyday, to be a better people. I'm proud of that.

Wow! I haven't seen this kind of reactionary temper-tantrum since the last
4th of July BBQ down at the VFW.

So how long were you in?? Usally this type of "God save the King"
mentality wears off after a boot has been in the field for a few months.
For the more febal minded it lasts longer but they usally never make it
above Cpl. or 1st Lt.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 2.6.3a at: http://users.invweb.net/~whgiii/pgpmr2.html                        
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Tag-O-Matic: Bugs come in through open Windows.

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on or about 980219:2334, in <199802200612.BAA31481@users.invweb.net>, 
    "William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net> was purported to have 
    expostulated to perpetuate an opinion:

    [chop 80% of the various rantings]

> Tune said:

>>You sound like nothing more than disillusioned, spoiled, pompous asshole
>>when you presume to know what Americans "understand".  Your anarchistic
>>ravings only mark you for the idiot you are.

>>To everyone else besides Cordian who reads this, my apologies, but for
>>all it's failings, I still have pride in America... ...not for all the
>>foreign policy bullshit or the way the government fucks us over, or
>>starts wars, or sticks their collective nose in other countries
>>business...but for the fact that as a whole people, Americans still keep
>>trying, everyday, to be a better people. I'm proud of that.

>Wow! I haven't seen this kind of reactionary temper-tantrum since the
>last 4th of July BBQ down at the VFW.

    really? you start yours with a prayer followed by the statement:

        OK, fellas, friendly game; all guns on the table...

>So how long were you in?? Usally this type of "God save the King"
>mentality wears off after a boot has been in the field for a few months.
>For the more febal minded it lasts longer but they usally never make it
>above Cpl. or 1st Lt.

    very true, for those who have never been deployed into the
    face of the beast. 

    those who have been in combat have an entirely different
    attitude.     

    the peacetime Army is a often a goldbrickers union for lack
    of something better to do. and it is definitely not true in
    the Corps with the exception of the few who take the two
    year stint and four years active reserve and are somewhat
    disillusioned by the inactivity as they never hit the floats
    or are otherwise deployed.


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"Eric J. Tune" <paladin@lvcablemodem.com> writes:
 
> You ever served in the military?  Unless you've been under fire, you
> should shut the fuck up about shit you know nothing about nor could
> comprehend.
 
Similarly, only rapists should judge other rapists, only murderers
other murderers, only SS members other SS members, and only soldiers
other soldiers, only tyrants other tyrants, only gas-chamber operators
other gas-chamber operators.
 
Waaaaaaa!  The Baby-Napalmers of the world cry, no one "understands"
us.
 
> Listen up jerk, in case you didn't get any news during 1990, Iraq
> attacked Kuwait, and murdered thousands of Kuwaitis.
 
Iraq, mislead by the US into believing that there would be no
interference in its long-standing dispute with Kuwait, annexed it,
providing a pretense for the US to do some dirty work for the
Israelis, who did not want to tolerate an Arab military giant in their
region.
 
Kuwait provoked Iraq far more than places like Panama and Grenada have
provoked the United States, when US forces poured in to remove
existing governments, and install regimes sympathetic to Washington,
also killing thousands of uninvolved civilians.
 
Then again, perhaps you believed the touching "Baby Incubator" story
performed by the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador for an
appreciative Congress, who were unaware of who she was, or that she
was lying through her teeth.  Perhaps you were also unaware that
American public opinion during the Persian Gulf War was under the
control of a domestic public relations firm hired by the government of
Kuwait.
 
> "Don't start no shit and there won't be no shit"... ever heard that,
> asshole
 
America always manages to find some pretense to fight the wars it
decides to fight.  Sometimes there is a staged attack, and an
arrangement for allies to "invite" us into the conflict.  Other times,
some imagined threat, like the chance that an infant formula factory
"could be used" to produce material that "might be used" for chemical
or biological warfare. Most of us who have watched the antics of
America for more than a few decades see through the transparent
rhetoric employed in such situations to manufacture public consent.
 
> America would have never been involved if Iraq hadn't invaded Kuwait.
 
Well, at least another pretense would have had to be engineered to
implement the ZoG agenda.
 
> I was there, in a Bradley,
 
Next time, try under a Bradley.
 
> and we could have rolled all over Baghdad, especially after what the
> Iraqi bastards did to the Kuwaitis, but it wasn't done. Unfortunately
> Saddam Hussein stayed in power.  There will not be a shred of a
> chance for peace in that region until he is DEAD.
 
Right.  Let's kill the only secular leader of the only secular
government in a region full of religious fruitcakes that either
believe that God has awarded them other peoples land in the Bible, or
that lopping off body parts is the appropriate punishment for
criticizing nonsense.  I didn't see Sadaam Hussein issuing any death
sentences against Salmon Rushdie.
 
> I don't think air strikes are the answer to this, and I think Clinton
> is a moron for his present policy, War is the worst thing that man can
> do to other men, and there is no such thing as "the good fight"... war
> is hell. Period.  Until you have been in a war, you have no idea of
> what you are talking about.
 
It's interesting that the nation that engaged in continuous national
nonstop whining over the kids in the exploding federal building
daycare center commits such crimes at the drop of a hat in other
countries, merely to send some ambiguous foreign policy message.
 
> But if you think that Iraq was "more right" or better yet, "less
> wrong", you need a radical lobotomy, or perhaps you've already had
> one.
 
I would be more than happy to put Sadaam in charge of Israel, Iran,
Saudi Arabia, and the UAE.  You know, Iraq is a multicultural nation.
It even has a Jewish communuity.  That's why "secular" is always
better than a religious state stuffing organized superstition and
paternalistic Sky-God fairy tales down the throats of its subjects.
 
> Evidently, you again know nothing of what the Iraqis did to the
> Kuwaitis on their way in to Kuwait.  Get educated, shithead.
 
So the fact that Iraqis may have mistreated Kuwaitis justifies George
Bush's order to destroy "everything that moves" on the only path out
of the impending American invasion, including civilians fleeing for
their lives with children in carseats?  That's the kind of logic I'd
expect from a professional babykiller.
 
> You sound like nothing more than disillusioned, spoiled, pompous
> asshole when you presume to know what Americans "understand".  Your
> anarchistic ravings only mark you for the idiot you are.
 
If you'd get your commanding officers cock out of your ass, and stop
listening to the propaganda they feed you, then maybe you would be
worthy of further discussion.
 
You have the choice to not join an army that commits atrocities on
foreign soil, and to refuse orders which conflict with whatever
remaining conscience you have.  If you join, and you go over there,
and you kill people, then you are no better than any other murderer.
 
Middle Eastern affairs pose no threat to the Constitution of the
United States, which is, after all, the only thing you are empowered
to defend by shooting at others.
 
> To everyone else besides Cordian who reads this, my apologies, but
> for all it's failings, I still have pride in America... ...not for
> all the foreign policy bullshit or the way the government fucks us
> over, or starts wars, or sticks their collective nose in other
> countries business...but for the fact that as a whole people,
> Americans still keep trying, everyday, to be a better people. I'm
> proud of that.
 
America needs a low-level format.  Soon.

-- 
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"

EC
>Kuwait provoked Iraq far more than places like Panama and Grenada have
>provoked the United States, when US forces poured in to remove
>existing governments, and install regimes sympathetic to Washington,
>also killing thousands of uninvolved civilians.
> 
>Then again, perhaps you believed the touching "Baby Incubator" story
>performed by the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador for an
>appreciative Congress, who were unaware of who she was, or that she
>was lying through her teeth.  Perhaps you were also unaware that
>American public opinion during the Persian Gulf War was under the
>control of a domestic public relations firm hired by the government of
>Kuwait.

wow!! well said.

a great book that nails this: "toxic sludge is good for you"
about the public relations industry and how it's playing the
tune while rome burns.

>America always manages to find some pretense to fight the wars it
>decides to fight.  Sometimes there is a staged attack, and an
>arrangement for allies to "invite" us into the conflict.  Other times,
>some imagined threat, like the chance that an infant formula factory
>"could be used" to produce material that "might be used" for chemical
>or biological warfare. Most of us who have watched the antics of
>America for more than a few decades see through the transparent
>rhetoric employed in such situations to manufacture public consent.

yes, and the cracks are starting to show-- how about that recent
rally in Ohio or whereever it was in which the audience refused
to stick to the "wag the dog" script? hee, hee. maybe there is
hope for us yet eh? one of the questions: "if other governments
of the middle east have weapons of mass destruction, why
are we singling out iraq?"

>America needs a low-level format.  Soon.

ouch!! that would hurt!!

another problem you don't mention is that the population has let
our own government run away. we send masses tax money but fail
to hold our own government responsible. "I am not responsible"
is the motto of immature children. we have an entire nation
of them, many on this list.

At 8:42 PM -0800 2/19/98, Eric J. Tune wrote:

>You ever served in the military?  Unless you've been under fire, you should
>shut the fuck up about shit you know nothing about nor could comprehend.
...
>Listen up jerk.... "Don't start no shit and there
>won't be no shit"... ever heard that, asshole?
...
>Get educated, shithead.
...
>You sound like nothing more than disillusioned, spoiled, pompous asshole


Such eloquence! He must've learned it in the military.

Very persuasive, too. Persuasive to a certain kind of person.

Wasted on this list, though.


--Tim May


Just Say No to "Big Brother Inside"
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Higher Power: 2^3,021,377   | black markets, collapse of governments.

>>What the world needs now is not another mass killing of Iraqis by the
>>United States government.  What the world really needs now is a fifty
>>dollar weapon that sinks aircraft carriers.

The Stinger missile and the bazooka have been a good start, letting 
local defenders stop the expensive tools of attacking armies.

At 08:42 PM 2/19/98 -0800, Eric J. Tune wrote:
>>> These soldiers went where they were ordered to go, as befits a soldier,
>>> and tried to do the job they were given and accomplish the mission, and
>>> for that EVERY ONE OF THEM DESERVES Y O U R RESPECT.  I am quite sure
>>> the vast majority of them thought it was patently stupid to go to
>>> Somalia in the first place, but a soldier follows orders, legal ones,
>>> and tries to get the job done regardless of personal feelings.

Following stupid orders gets your fellow soldiers killed stupidly.
Following immoral orders gets your fellow soldiers killed, and gets the 
opposing soldiers killed, and gets the civilian collateral damage killed,
and the fact that you're following orders doesn't absolve you of guilt.
Once you're in the war, you're also fighting to keep your buddies from
getting killed, and to keep from getting killed yourself, and if the
orders are tactically correct and sacrifice you and your buddies as
the price of an overall victory, that's the price of being a soldier.
But if you shouldn't be there, you shouldn't be there, no matter how
competent and brave and patriotic you're being while you're there.
Most soldiers I've known believe in following orders, and the politicians
who send them there pull out all the stops to keep them believing it.

>Listen up jerk, in case you didn't get any news during 1990, Iraq attacked
>Kuwait, and murdered thousands of Kuwaitis. ... America would have never
>been involved if Iraq hadn't invaded Kuwait.  

Yeah?  In 1980, Iraq attacked Iran, and the US sold them weapons,
and Saddam was Reagan & Bush's good buddy and ally.  And in 1990
when Saddam was talking with the US Ambassador about their border problem,
she said the US had no interest in such a purely local problem.
OK, it wasn't like we had to twist Saddam's arm to get him to invade;
he is a militarist asshole - but in 1980 that was a Good Thing.
And in 19{pick a number} Israel invaded South Lebanon - Good Thing Too!

Is it possible that it's got a lot more to do with US Foreign policy
or geopolitical interests?  Or about the fact that the US Military-
Industrial Complex was severely threatened by the lack of Commies?
Or just partly because George Bush's Neilsen ratings were down
and he'd had good results invading Panama?  Or that the Ayatollah
had gotten rid of one of America's favorite dictators in Iran
just a year or two before (even though he disliked Commies too)?
Or because the US Army wanted to make sure everybody knows that
they can kick anybody's ass, anywhere, anytime?

In the process of demolishing Iraq, Bush's army killed hundreds of
thousands of civilians, demolishing much of the civilian infrastructure
for safe drinking water (which probably killed more people than
the bombing did), as well as killing tens of thousands of
draftee soldiers.  If the objective had been to get rid of Saddam,
a couple dozen good Mossad agents or Green Berets could have
taken him out quickly and efficiently.  That wasn't the objective.

> I don't think air strikes are the answer to this, and I think 
> Clinton is a moron for his present policy,

He's a sleaze, but no moron - his objectives are maintaining his own
political influence, which he's very good at, as opposed to doing
anything positive for the Kuwaitis or Iraqis or Americans....

>Evidently, you again know nothing of what the Iraqis did to the Kuwaitis on
>their way in to Kuwait.  Get educated, shithead. 
Probably about like what they did to the Iranians or what the
Israelis did to the South Lebanese, except that it was Bad instead of Good.

>To everyone else besides Cordian who reads this, my apologies, but for all
>it's failings, I still have pride in America... ...not for all the foreign
>policy bullshit or the way the government fucks us over, or starts wars, or
>sticks their collective nose in other countries business...but for the fact
>that as a whole people, Americans still keep trying, everyday, to be a
>better people. I'm proud of that.

I agree.  And telling the government to stop initiating wars and trying
to get the people not to jump in line behind a propaganda bandwagon
are a good part of trying to be a better people.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart@pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639