Re: Citizenship silliness. Re: e$: crypto-expatriatism (fwd)

Forwarded message:

> Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 18:17:45 -0500
> From: Petro <petro@playboy.com>
> Subject: Re: Citizenship silliness.  Re: e$: crypto-expatriatism

> planet and take all that fucking oil with them.

I wonder how the new realization that the calthrate deposits in the ocean
bottem off the continental shelf make fine fuel and it's replenishable and
may be of a larger quantity than the oil reserves will effect the power
balance.


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Raymond D. Mereniuk wrote:
> > oil, the arabs will slip back into obscurity.
> 
Can't wait.

> Good point!  Ever wonder why a decreasing commodity non-
> renewable resource is becoming cheaper as the known reserves
> become smaller?
> 
> Maybe they want to sell it all before it becomes obsolete and
> maximize their income from that resource.
> 
> Within the oil business I have heard this mentioned in regards to
> natural gas.
> 
I remember going to hear a Cornell geophysicist speak on this subject
about 17 years ago. The gist of his talk was that the porosity of the
mantle material had some unexpected variation vs. depth. This, along
with the nature of the natural gas fields in Louisiana and the content
profile of some oil reserves indicated a large amount of natural gas
reserves as part of the deeper structure. I don't know where this ever
went but it was pretty interesting at the time.

Mike

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In <199809082359.SAA12044@einstein.ssz.com>, on 09/08/98 
   at 06:59 PM, Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com> said:

>Forwarded message:

>> Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 18:17:45 -0500
>> From: Petro <petro@playboy.com>
>> Subject: Re: Citizenship silliness.  Re: e$: crypto-expatriatism

>> planet and take all that fucking oil with them.

>I wonder how the new realization that the calthrate deposits in the ocean
>bottem off the continental shelf make fine fuel and it's replenishable
>and may be of a larger quantity than the oil reserves will effect the
>power balance.

Once an alternative fuel source is discovered that is more economical than
oil, the arabs will slip back into obscurity.

- -- 
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Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

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At 5:09 PM -0500 9/9/98, Raymond D. Mereniuk wrote:
>William H. Geiger IIIwrote
>
>> Once an alternative fuel source is discovered that is more economical than
>> oil, the arabs will slip back into obscurity.
>
>Good point!  Ever wonder why a decreasing commodity non-
>renewable resource is becoming cheaper as the known reserves
>become smaller?

	Could it be that certain large players (say, the U.K, U.S. Soviet
Union &etc) have a vested interest in cheap oil as long as possible, so
they do things (like create the state of israel, and give it lots of
economic aid) to destablize the region, keep the people of that area at
each others throats &etc. so that OPEC can't agree to control prices...

	Nah, I'm just paranoid.

petro@playboy.com----for work related issues. I don't speak for Playboy.
petro@bounty.org-----for everthing else.      They wouldn't like that.
                                              They REALLY
Economic speech IS political speech.          wouldn't like that.

William H. Geiger IIIwrote

> Once an alternative fuel source is discovered that is more economical than
> oil, the arabs will slip back into obscurity.

Good point!  Ever wonder why a decreasing commodity non-
renewable resource is becoming cheaper as the known reserves 
become smaller?  

Maybe they want to sell it all before it becomes obsolete and 
maximize their income from that resource.

Within the oil business I have heard this mentioned in regards to 
natural gas.



Virtually

Raymond D. Mereniuk
Raymond@fbn.bc.ca

Ray Arachelian typethed the following...
>
>Raymond D. Mereniuk wrote:

<snip>

>
>What pisses me off is that in NYC the gas prices are ridiculous high...
>$1.35/Gal is the regular gas, drive just a few miles over a tunnel or bridge 
>to n NJ, it's $1.00 or $.99 depending on which pump you hit...  go a bit
south,
>say VA, and in some areas it drops as low as $0.87 a gallon!
>
>Shit, if it weren't for the tolls and the drive, I'd be getting my gas out of
>NYC all the time, but doing so wastes enough and costs enough in tolls to not
>make it worth the effort...
>
>Just out of curiosity what are prices around where you guys live?

Prices in Anchorage are about $1.15 in the summer and $1.30-5 when the
tourists leave. And we have all the oil you can use and a bunch of
refinery's up here. 
We get shafted nearly as bad as you do.





 --Dave

Lucidity Paradox:  Explain a concept in sufficient detail, and it will
become clearer and clearer until it eventually disappears.

At 02:38 PM 9/11/98 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:

>Those New Jersey prices, while lower than New York, are still
>articifially high, since they're "full-service".  The People's 
>Republic of New Jersey *knows* that regular untrained citizens
>can't be trusted to pump their own gasoline reliably -
>otherwise you'd be having frequent explosions at gasoline
>stations like you do in the rest of the country.

No.  The legislature knows that the citizens of the Garden State are otherwise unemployable so they have established a protected job category of gas jockey to keep them off the streets.

DCF

Raymond D. Mereniuk wrote:

> Now we have cheap oil.  Big powerful vehicles are back and we are
> not embarrassed to consume energy any more.  I have no idea
> where society is heading but I do like have a more powerful vehicle
> which capable of passing a vehicle already doing 65 MPH.

What pisses me off is that in NYC the gas prices are ridiculous high...
$1.35/Gal is the regular gas, drive just a few miles over a tunnel or bridge 
to n NJ, it's $1.00 or $.99 depending on which pump you hit...  go a bit south,
say VA, and in some areas it drops as low as $0.87 a gallon!

Shit, if it weren't for the tolls and the drive, I'd be getting my gas out of
NYC all the time, but doing so wastes enough and costs enough in tolls to not
make it worth the effort...

Just out of curiosity what are prices around where you guys live?
 
> The whole Greens or tree-hugger thing is a bit hypocritical.  Ask
> them if they have electrical appliances in their home and the answer
> is always yes.  For a number of years the Greenpeace fundraisers
> would show up at the door asking for money to battle the forest
> industry and the evil pulp mills which used chlorine in their bleaching
> process and they would have white paper in their clipboards.

Yep... saw one at Barnes & Noble a while ago bitching about how he got a
plastic bag.  We'll, if he's worried that plastic is bad for the environment,
he should worry about the murdered tree in his hand that he just purchased...

Ditto for militant vegans... it's one thing to do it for health reasons, it's
another to be an asshole about killing fuzzy animals.. hey veggies are alive
too.  If you're gonna murder veggies to live, (whose growth results in the
death of millions of insects who would devour the veggies if not for
insecticides) you may as well quit being a hypocrite and murder animals too...

The only way for a consciencious objecting vegan to not be a hypocrite is to
simply stop eating and drinking and breathing... after all, every time he does
so, he inhales, ingests, or otherwise murders billions of microbes... :)

(Whenever someone asks if I have special dietary needs, I say "I'm a carnivore,
make sure you've got plenty of red meat!") :)

By far the worst is the recycling law in NYC.  If you don't recycle your trash,
you get fined.  If a homeless bum sticks his hand in a recycling bin and grabs
a paper he gets arrested for theft of government property, etc...  If someone
throws a can of soda in your trash bins infront of your house, you pay a $50
fine...  A while back some may remeber the "Toilet Escrow" thread... yep that
too has hit New York.  Every toilet in our apt building was exchanged for one
that supposedly saves water... Whatever the political and economic kickbacks
were, it now takes an average of three flushes to sink a bowlful of turds... 
My math says that's a lot more wasted water than the single flush of the old
toilet.


-- 

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================

Some whining Yankee wrote: 
>>What pisses me off is that in NYC the gas prices are ridiculous high...
>>$1.35/Gal is the regular gas, drive just a few miles over a tunnel or bridge 
>>to n NJ, it's $1.00 or $.99 depending on which pump you hit...  go a bit
>south,
>>say VA, and in some areas it drops as low as $0.87 a gallon!

Over in Europe, prices are mostly about $1 -- per liter.

Back here in California, prices have been varying a lot, and
are generally higher in areas with lots of people, lots of money,
or lots of restrictions on gas stations.   Here in San Francisco,
it's about $1.30, and down in Silicon Valley it's mostly about
$1.20, with some cheaper stations and some more expensive.
We have different gas - for environmental reasons, they add
chemicals designed to pollute water and irritate people's lungs
(while reducing smog a bit.)

Those New Jersey prices, while lower than New York, are still
articifially high, since they're "full-service".  The People's 
Republic of New Jersey *knows* that regular untrained citizens
can't be trusted to pump their own gasoline reliably -
otherwise you'd be having frequent explosions at gasoline
stations like you do in the rest of the country.
Any time the legislature begins to suggest legalizing
self-service gas, small gas station owners pretending to be
little old ladies write to all the newspapers protesting that
they'd have to pay a lot more money to have gas pumped for them
and how dare these politicians be so mean to YOUR grandmothers,
and the threat disappears again for a few years.
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart@pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639

Ray Arachelian <sunder@brainlink.com> wrote

> Just out of curiosity what are prices around where you guys live?

In the Vancouver BC area they are trying to raise the price and the 
new standard is CAN$0.549 per litre, or US$1.37 per US gallon.  
Not difficult to find CAN$0.454/l or US$1.14/g.  For the last few 
weeks you could find CAN$0.399/l or US$1.00/g.  I often go to 
Blaine WA and the lowest available there is US$1.059.  Gas in 
Seattle WA is at least US$1.199.

> Ditto for militant vegans... it's one thing to do it for health reasons, it's
> another to be an asshole about killing fuzzy animals.. hey veggies are alive
> too.  If you're gonna murder veggies to live, (whose growth results in the
> death of millions of insects who would devour the veggies if not for
> insecticides) you may as well quit being a hypocrite and murder animals too...
> 
> The only way for a consciencious objecting vegan to not be a hypocrite is to
> simply stop eating and drinking and breathing... after all, every time he does
> so, he inhales, ingests, or otherwise murders billions of microbes... :)

Have you ever tried using this argument on a Vegetarian?  I have 
and they squirm in all directions attempting to rationalize their 
irrational position.  Basically some living things are more living than 
others.  Sort of reminds you of some politicians where it is obvious 
from their actions that some people are more equal than other 
people.





Virtually

Raymond D. Mereniuk
Raymond@fbn.bc.ca

Raymond D. Mereniuk wrote:

> In the Vancouver BC area they are trying to raise the price and the
> new standard is CAN$0.549 per litre, or US$1.37 per US gallon.
> Not difficult to find CAN$0.454/l or US$1.14/g.  For the last few
> weeks you could find CAN$0.399/l or US$1.00/g.  I often go to
> Blaine WA and the lowest available there is US$1.059.  Gas in
> Seattle WA is at least US$1.199.

Bastards!
 
> Have you ever tried using this argument on a Vegetarian?  I have
> and they squirm in all directions attempting to rationalize their
> irrational position.  Basically some living things are more living than
> others.  Sort of reminds you of some politicians where it is obvious
> from their actions that some people are more equal than other
> people.

Yep, and they can't figgure out what to say, so they just cop out saying it's
healthier.  :)

-- 

=====================================Kaos=Keraunos=Kybernetos==============
.+.^.+.|  Ray Arachelian    |Prying open my 3rd eye.  So good to see |./|\.
..\|/..|sunder@sundernet.com|you once again. I thought you were      |/\|/\
<--*-->| ------------------ |hiding, and you thought that I had run  |\/|\/
../|\..| "A toast to Odin,  |away chasing the tail of dogma. I opened|.\|/.
.+.v.+.|God of screwdrivers"|my eye and there we were....            |.....
======================= http://www.sundernet.com ==========================

> Yep, and they can't figgure out what to say, so they just cop out saying it's healthier.  :)
> 
Julia Child, when asked to what she owed her longevity, replied:

"RED MEAT AND GIN"

Anyone got a good recipe for a New Orleans style bourbon steak?

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In <199809092123.OAA17355@leroy.fbn.bc.ca>, on 09/09/98 
   at 02:09 PM, "Raymond D. Mereniuk" <Raymond@fbn.bc.ca> said:


>William H. Geiger IIIwrote

>> Once an alternative fuel source is discovered that is more economical than
>> oil, the arabs will slip back into obscurity.

>Good point!  Ever wonder why a decreasing commodity non-
>renewable resource is becoming cheaper as the known reserves  become
>smaller?  

>Maybe they want to sell it all before it becomes obsolete and  maximize
>their income from that resource.

>Within the oil business I have heard this mentioned in regards to 
>natural gas.

Most of these countries are economically "one trick ponies" and have
little export revenue outside of oil. Because OPEC <sp?> has been a
failure at enforcing production quotas there is a surplus of oil on the
market thus driving down the cost (supply and demand).

There are also large reserves of oil in Alaska, Siberia and elsewhere that
are going unused along with other reserves that are too expensive to
extract the oil at current market prices. The so called "oil shortage" of
the 70's had more to do with Oil Companies profiteering than it did with
any actual shortage. I have seen estimates in the past of our domestic oil
reserves showing that we have enough oil to last another 100 years at out
current rate of increased consumption if we stopped all imports today.
Simple economics is that it is cheaper for us to import it than it is to
produce it domestically.

As much as the Greens whine and cry about alternative fuels, the simple
fact is that as long as oil is cheap no one is going to switch. 

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.openpgp.net
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 5.0 at: http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html
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Petro <petro@playboy.com> wrote

>Could it be that certain large players (say, the U.K, U.S. Soviet
>Union &etc) have a vested interest in cheap oil as long as possible, 
>sothey do things (like create the state of israel, and give it lots of
> economic aid) to destablize the region, keep the people of that area at
> each others throats &etc. so that OPEC can't agree to control prices...
> 
> 	Nah, I'm just paranoid.

"William H. Geiger III" <whgiii@invweb.net> wrote

>Most of these countries are economically "one trick ponies" and 
>have little export revenue outside of oil. Because OPEC <sp?> has 
>been a failure at enforcing production quotas there is a surplus of 
>oil on the market thus driving down the cost (supply and demand).

As William stated most of the OPEC nations are economic "one trick 
ponies" whose leaders don't see the big picture and the benefits of a 
cartel where all members co-operate.  Israel was part of the 
justification for screwing the world for more money in the so called 
70s oil crisis.  I would think that if the Arabs didn't have Israel to hate 
they would find some other group.

If you go back to the late 40s you will find many political deals done 
by the British which didn't make a lot of sense.  The British walking 
out of Burma and turning political control over to whoever the goofs 
are that ruined that country made no sense whatsoever.  The British 
turned political control of Malaysia over to the ethnic Malays where 
the Malays are not the original people of that region.  The Malays 
were immigrants much like most of the Chinese, they just got there 
300 years earlier.  

Falling oil prices probably hurt the USA and Soviet governments 
more than any possible benefit.  The Soviets export oil so they are 
hurting.  The US and most other western style democracies tax oil 
products based on its wholesale cost and retail selling pricing so 
they would see reduced revenues.

>There are also large reserves of oil in Alaska, Siberia and 
>elsewhere that are going unused along with other reserves that are 
>too expensive to extract the oil at current market prices. The so 
>called "oil shortage" of the 70's had more to do with Oil Companies 
>profiteering than it did with any actual shortage. I have seen 
>estimates in the past of our domestic oil reserves showing that we 
>have enough oil to last another 100 years at out current rate of 
>increased consumption if we stopped all imports today. Simple 
>economics is that it is cheaper for us to import it than it is to
>produce it domestically.

You can add possible large reserves in the Canadian Arctic.  The oil 
companies started to find it and they tried to think of a way to 
transport it.  The Canadian gov't vetoed all the transportation 
alternatives so the oil companies stopped exploration.

The middle east countries do have the oil reserves with the lowest 
cost of production.  Most reserves in North American are moderate 
to high cost of production.

Now if you want to be paranoid....   Before the 70s energy crisis we 
all drove big cars which had no problem doing the 65 MPH speed 
limit and back then we used to pass on two-lane highways.  The 
energy crisis came and we all accepted gutless foreign made small 
cars which consumed less energy and had a problem with the 55 
MPH speed limit and passing was impossible on a two-lane highway 
even if we found a section which was not double-lined.  

Now we have cheap oil.  Big powerful vehicles are back and we are 
not embarrassed to consume energy any more.  I have no idea 
where society is heading but I do like have a more powerful vehicle 
which capable of passing a vehicle already doing 65 MPH.

>As much as the Greens whine and cry about alternative fuels, the 
>simple fact is that as long as oil is cheap no one is going to switch. 

The whole Greens or tree-hugger thing is a bit hypocritical.  Ask 
them if they have electrical appliances in their home and the answer 
is always yes.  For a number of years the Greenpeace fundraisers  
would show up at the door asking for money to battle the forest 
industry and the evil pulp mills which used chlorine in their bleaching 
process and they would have white paper in their clipboards.




Virtually

Raymond D. Mereniuk
Raymond@fbn.bc.ca

At 11:22 PM -0500 9/8/98, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>In <199809082359.SAA12044@einstein.ssz.com>, on 09/08/98
>   at 06:59 PM, Jim Choate <ravage@einstein.ssz.com> said:
>
>>Forwarded message:
>
>>> Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 18:17:45 -0500
>>> From: Petro <petro@playboy.com>
>>> Subject: Re: Citizenship silliness.  Re: e$: crypto-expatriatism
>
>>> planet and take all that fucking oil with them.
>
>>I wonder how the new realization that the calthrate deposits in the ocean
>>bottem off the continental shelf make fine fuel and it's replenishable
>>and may be of a larger quantity than the oil reserves will effect the
>>power balance.
>
>Once an alternative fuel source is discovered that is more economical than
>oil,

	There already are several, the problem is the cannot be centralized
the way oil is.

	Alcohol is acceptable (and in some ways better) than gasoline for
cars and motorcycles, but anyone can set up a still and compete with RDS &
Standard. A mix of solar, wind, coal, hydroelectric, nuclear and other
sources can provide most of the rest of the power we need. It is just a
matter of being willing to make the investment in the changeover.

> the arabs will slip back into obscurity.

	Yeah, and the US will suddenly find that there is no longer an
reason to provide Isreal with HOW MUCH military support per year?

petro@playboy.com----for work related issues. I don't speak for Playboy.
petro@bounty.org-----for everthing else.      They wouldn't like that.
                                              They REALLY
Economic speech IS political speech.          wouldn't like that.