Re: Citizenship silliness. Re: e$: crypto-expatriatism

> [gun control laws in other countries being even worse than the US]

Does anyone know of any countries with more reasonable gun laws than the
US?  I vaguely think Israel and Switzerland are better, at least for citizens.
It is one of the major problems I have with Anguilla -- "guns are bad".
I miss my M1A.

I mostly have two classes of guns I'd like to have: air pistol, for
practice and competition, and military-style semiautomatic rifles, for
practice and long-term defense.  Self-defense handguns and shotguns
are somewhat optional.

A country like Switzerland seems ideal, at least as a citizen, given
the reserve requirements.  Mmmm, a nice Hammerli air pistol and
a shiny new HK PSG-1 would make me forget about the M1A I left behind, very
quickly.  Especially with a good daylight scope and an IR scope...  Only
$30k or so for the package with 10k rounds of national match ammo.
-- 
Ryan Lackey
rdl@mit.edu
http://sof.mit.edu/rdl/		<-- down

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In <tw71zpmhe9n.fsf@denmark-vesey.MIT.EDU>, on 09/08/98 
   at 10:26 AM, Ryan Lackey <rdl@MIT.EDU> said:

>Does anyone know of any countries with more reasonable gun laws than the
>US?  I vaguely think Israel and Switzerland are better, at least for
>citizens. It is one of the major problems I have with Anguilla -- "guns
>are bad". I miss my M1A.

Well back when I lived in Israel during the early '80s everyone had guns,
and a lots of them. My landlord had a small armory in his bombshelter
(something ever home has). I do not know what the gun laws are there
concerning non-military citizens, but considering that everyone is in the
military this doesn't seem to be much of an issue (unless you are a
Palestinian).

Nice country to live, good climate (comparable to southern California),
friendly people, civilized country, strong European influence to the
culture (for obvious reasons), parliamentary form of government. Inflation
was *very* bad when I was there (I think only Italy & Argentina was worse)
hopefully this has improved.

I left at the end of '82 before all this crap with the Palestinians
started. I don't know what shape basic liberties have taken since I have
left. I imagine that after 50 years of continual war things are a little
more restrictive than what most Americans are accustom to.

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Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

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At 7:26 AM -0700 9/8/98, Ryan Lackey wrote:
>> [gun control laws in other countries being even worse than the US]
>
>Does anyone know of any countries with more reasonable gun laws than the
>US?  I vaguely think Israel and Switzerland are better, at least for citizens.
>It is one of the major problems I have with Anguilla -- "guns are bad".
>I miss my M1A.

Don't automatically assume Israel is good for gun ownership. If you're an
untermenschen, a schwarzen, a sand nigger, an Arab, you can't legally own a
gun. Unless you're one of the Trustees, i.e., a deputized member of the
PLO's military or police.

The Chosen People are of course encouraged to have fully automatic weapons.

(This is not a detailed elaboration of Israeli gun laws. Maybe even some
Jews are forbidden to have guns. Israel has a lot of laws. But I know that
"settlers" carry Uzi and suchlike openly, while Arabs in the same lands are
forbidden from even owning shotguns or .22s.)

Switzerland is also not what many think it is. While able-bodied men who
served in the military have weapons issued to them that they keep at home,
this does not necessarily imply gun ownership nirvana. For one thing, all
the guns are tracked. For another, visitors or temporary residents face the
usual surveillance state controls.

Don't count on there being Gun Show and Swap Meets, where folks trade .45s
and 9s and Uzis and AR-15s and M1As without benefit of notifying the
Supreme Ruler and His Minions. (Such as our Second Amendment says we can
do, until the commies took over in these Beknighted States.)

>I mostly have two classes of guns I'd like to have: air pistol, for
>practice and competition, and military-style semiautomatic rifles, for
>practice and long-term defense.  Self-defense handguns and shotguns
>are somewhat optional.

See above. Let us know if you find anyplace in the Caribbean which actually
allows these kinds of guns to be owned by the sheeple.


--Tim May

"The tree of liberty must be watered periodically with the blood of
tyrants...."
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Licensed Ontologist              | black markets, collapse of governments.

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In <v03130303b21b0886ab43@[209.66.100.138]>, on 09/08/98 
   at 09:24 AM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:

>>
>>Does anyone know of any countries with more reasonable gun laws than the
>>US?  I vaguely think Israel and Switzerland are better, at least for citizens.
>>It is one of the major problems I have with Anguilla -- "guns are bad".
>>I miss my M1A.

>Don't automatically assume Israel is good for gun ownership. If you're an
>untermenschen, a schwarzen, a sand nigger, an Arab, you can't legally own
>a gun. Unless you're one of the Trustees, i.e., a deputized member of the
>PLO's military or police.

>The Chosen People are of course encouraged to have fully automatic
>weapons.

Yes Tim, we all know your anti-Israel position and your sympathy for the
Palistinians even though they are in the position that they are due to
their own actions.

They started the war, got their asses beat and have been whining about it
for the past 50 years.

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Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

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At 11:19 AM -0700 9/8/98, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>Yes Tim, we all know your anti-Israel position and your sympathy for the
>Palistinians even though they are in the position that they are due to
>their own actions.
>
>They started the war, got their asses beat and have been whining about it
>for the past 50 years.

We'll see who's whining after 2 million Zionists are consumed in the holy
fire that sweeps through Haifa and Tel Aviv.

Some Jews learned nothing from WWII.

Ironic that our Cypherpunks technology, including remailers, will help the
forces of liberation coordinate their attacks. On this point, Freeh and
Reno are completely correct, as I have been saying for years.


--Tim May

"The tree of liberty must be watered periodically with the blood of
tyrants...."
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Licensed Ontologist              | black markets, collapse of governments.

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In <v03130306b21b29f68511@[209.66.100.138]>, on 09/08/98 
   at 11:41 AM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:

>>Yes Tim, we all know your anti-Israel position and your sympathy for the
>>Palistinians even though they are in the position that they are due to
>>their own actions.
>>
>>They started the war, got their asses beat and have been whining about it
>>for the past 50 years.

>We'll see who's whining after 2 million Zionists are consumed in the holy
>fire that sweeps through Haifa and Tel Aviv.

While you may gleefully look forward to such a day, need I remind you that
it will be more than the Jews that go up in flames. Israel has a nice
little stockpile of weapons and are not shy about using them. Any major
attack against Israel is liable to cause the entire Middle East turned
into one large glass bowl.

More than likely Israel will make use of a pre-emptive strike before
anyone gets close to finishing their weapons let alone launching them (I
was there when Israel launched their attack against the Iraq Breeder
Reactor the French were so kind to build for them).

>Some Jews learned nothing from WWII.

Actually they learned quite a bit. They will *never* be herded into cattle
cars and shipped off to the gas chambers again. They may eventually fall
to the forces of darkness but they will do so fighting.

>Ironic that our Cypherpunks technology, including remailers, will help
>the forces of liberation coordinate their attacks. On this point, Freeh
>and Reno are completely correct, as I have been saying for years.

forces of liberation? Lets see, Jews emigrate to Trans-Jordan, *buy* land
from the arabs living there, and live peaceably. The British decide to
divide up this area between Jordan, Palestine, and Israel. The Grand Mufti
declares a "holy war" against the Jews in which the Palestinians and
several neighboring countries join. The Arabs loose, the Jews win. They
continue this war for the next 50 years with various periods of
cease-fire. Every time they loose.

What the Arabs have attempted to do is finish the job the Nazi's started.
Only the Jews are not going to go down without a fight. The continuing
conflict in the Middle East has not been a battle of liberation but a war
of ethnic cleansing and extermination against the Jews.

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Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

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PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
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At 2:44 PM -0500 9/8/98, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>What the Arabs have attempted to do is finish the job the Nazi's started.

	Bullshit.

	I don't care much for palestinians, mostly for cultural reasons,
but they were, in the begininging not interested in killing every jew in
the world, they may not have liked the Northern European Jews, but from
what I've seen, there wasn't any love lost the other way.

	Personally, I hope they BOTH nuke each other off the god damn
planet and take all that fucking oil with them.

>Only the Jews are not going to go down without a fight. The continuing
>conflict in the Middle East has not been a battle of liberation but a war
>of ethnic cleansing and extermination against the Jews.

	No, more like a get off our fucking land.

petro@playboy.com----for work related issues. I don't speak for Playboy.
petro@bounty.org-----for everthing else.      They wouldn't like that.
                                              They REALLY
Economic speech IS political speech.          wouldn't like that.

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In <v03110710b21b6a259806@[206.189.103.244]>, on 09/08/98 
   at 06:17 PM, Petro <petro@playboy.com> said:

>	No, more like a get off our fucking land.

Sure thing, and where you live, exactly who's land was it before you got
there?

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Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
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>And it wouldn't have happened had the victorious superpowers decided the
>sand niggers in Palestine could be kicked off their land. (I have no beef
>with those Jews who peacefully bought land in Palestine prior to this mass
>resettlement.)

No doubt the Arabs were being given the shaft. First by the Ottomans
(western lackys that they were) and then by the superpowers themselves
after they could no longer hide behind a puppet regime.

The Arabs didn't make things any better by refusing to accept any Jewish
settlers, including those who had purchased land from first the Ottomans
and then the Palestinians. The Palestinians had been told no harm would
come to those of them who stood aside and warned if they fought or fled
their lands they wouldn't be welcomed back.

When it comes to nations, fairness has historically had little influence on
such outcomes. In the end, all property belongs to those who can keep it
(by whatever means are necessary).

--Steve

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At 11:25 PM -0500 9/8/98, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>In <v03110710b21b6a259806@[206.189.103.244]>, on 09/08/98
>   at 06:17 PM, Petro <petro@playboy.com> said:
>
>>	No, more like a get off our fucking land.
>
>Sure thing, and where you live, exactly who's land was it before you got
>there?

	Point is, the "Arabs" didn't start it, the UN/European leaders (US,
UK, FR, and RU) did.


	If I move you off your property at the point of a gun, should I
expect you to _like_ it, even if I gave you what I consider "fair market
value"?

	Oh, and the about should have read:

	No, more like a "get off our fucking land".

petro@playboy.com----for work related issues. I don't speak for Playboy.
petro@bounty.org-----for everthing else.      They wouldn't like that.
                                              They REALLY
Economic speech IS political speech.          wouldn't like that.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03110703b21c4777ca38@[206.189.103.244]>, on 09/09/98 
   at 09:58 AM, Petro <petro@playboy.com> said:

>At 11:25 PM -0500 9/8/98, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>
>>In <v03110710b21b6a259806@[206.189.103.244]>, on 09/08/98
>>   at 06:17 PM, Petro <petro@playboy.com> said:
>>
>>>	No, more like a get off our fucking land.
>>
>>Sure thing, and where you live, exactly who's land was it before you got
>>there?

>	Point is, the "Arabs" didn't start it, the UN/European leaders (US, UK,
>FR, and RU) did.

Both the Palestinians and the Jews living in Trans-Jordan wanted their own
country. The UN resolution divided up the land based on population and
gave each group their own country. Israel declared their independence, the
Palestinians listened to the Grand Mufti and join in the holy war to wipe
out the Jews. The Arabs lost, too bad, game over.

And interesting note to the whole palestinian "issue" is that the majority
of the population of Jordan is palestinian!! And long before the Intifada
the PLO tried to take over the government of Jordan and were embroiled in
civil war for most of the 60's and early 70's. The Jordanian Arabs finally
kick the PLO out in the early 70's (71 maybe 72).


>	If I move you off your property at the point of a gun, should I expect
>you to _like_ it, even if I gave you what I consider "fair market value"?

This re-wright of history might give you warm fuzzies but no one was moved
at gun point off their land (at least not until the Arabs started the
war). The Jews that emigrated to Trans-Jordan/Palestine *purchased* the
land from the Arabs that were living there. Even after the war the
majority of palestinians left on their own.

None of the current Arab countries existed until the British carved up
their conquered territory after WWI. If Israel is not "legitimate" because
of UK/UN involvement does it follow that all of the Arab states that were
formed at this time are also illegitimate? Perhaps we should should
re-unite the Ottoman Empire? How far back in history do you want to go to
find the "legitimate" territorial boundaries? Persian? Roman? Israel?
Egyptian? Sumerian?

I find it quite hypocritical of Americans who see the Israelites as
occupiers and oppressors but would be outraged at calls to give back the
south-west to Mexico. Tim, you want to give your ranch to some Mexican
family since the Americans took that land from them? but then the mexicans
would have to give that land back to some deserving "native" Americans as
they took that land from them. But then again we would have to sift
through the thousands of years of tribal warfare and migration to find the
one true owners of the land.

- -- 
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William H. Geiger III  http://www.openpgp.net
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

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At 9:25 PM -0700 9/8/98, William H. Geiger III wrote:
\
>In <v03110710b21b6a259806@[206.189.103.244]>, on 09/08/98
>   at 06:17 PM, Petro <petro@playboy.com> said:
>
>>	No, more like a get off our fucking land.
>
>Sure thing, and where you live, exactly who's land was it before you got
>there?

Well, I take a lot more seriously the claims of a Palestinian orange grower
in Jaffa who is farming land that has been in his family for many
generations than I do the claim of an Auschwitz survivor from Krakow who
claims that YHVH or some other bearded Sky Father gave his lineage the
entire land 3000 years ago.

What was done to the Jews by Hitler in WWII was horrible. But the solution
was not to take ethnic Northern Europeans (much more of their genetic
material is Russian, Latvian, Polish, northern European in general, than is
Semitic) and resettle them on the lands of people who've actually been
living in the area and farming it for at least the past several
generations, and probably closer to the past few thousand years. A claim
that Yahweh "gave" Palestine to those who have been living in Poland for a
thousand years is just pure bullshit.

And it wouldn't have happened had the victorious superpowers decided the
sand niggers in Palestine could be kicked off their land. (I have no beef
with those Jews who peacefully bought land in Palestine prior to this mass
resettlement.)

Frankly, I've always thought the suitable place for the Allies to have
resettled the Jews--to the extent it was our business at all--was Germany
itself. Plenty of conquered villages, plenty of seized castles and villas
and chalets.

And if the Jews thought this was too "icky," to be resettled in the land of
their oppression, and insisted instead that the Alllies push the sand
niggers out of their orange groves...well, fuck 'em. Given 'em a loaf of
bread and wish them good luck and send them on their way.

(And let us not forget the actions of the Stern Gang and such in blowing up
the King David Hotel.)

The chickens are coming home to roost.

--Tim May


"The tree of liberty must be watered periodically with the blood of
tyrants...."
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Licensed Ontologist              | black markets, collapse of governments.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <v03130305b21bb44e5bb2@[209.66.100.149]>, on 09/08/98 
   at 09:40 PM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:

>And it wouldn't have happened had the victorious superpowers decided the
>sand niggers in Palestine could be kicked off their land. (I have no beef
>with those Jews who peacefully bought land in Palestine prior to this
>mass resettlement.)

Sorry Tim, you need to re-check your history.

No one was kicked off their land until *after* war broke out in '45. All
land occupied by the Jews before that was *purchased* from the Arabs
living there. There was also a large percentage of land that was either
desert or swaps that was reclaimed by the Jews and turned into productive
farm land. Tel Aviv was nothing but sand and scrub brush before the Jews
started building there (there was the Ancient city of Jaffo which Tel Aviv
has now encompassed but it took decades of expansion before Tel Aviv
reached that far south).

After the various battles of this 50 year war large percentages of the
Palestinian population left Israelie held territory, but this had more to
do with the Arab leaders calling for them to do so (and their not wanting
to live under Israelie rule) than it did with the Jews pushing them out.

Similar migrations were seen when India and Pakistan were created. Large
portions of Moslem population that were living in India moved to Pakistan
despite Ghandi's calls for them to stay.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.openpgp.net
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
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At 11:25 AM -0700 9/9/98, William H. Geiger III wrote:


>After the various battles of this 50 year war large percentages of the
>Palestinian population left Israelie held territory, but this had more to
>do with the Arab leaders calling for them to do so (and their not wanting
>to live under Israelie rule) than it did with the Jews pushing them out.


Yes, many farmers and others left the war zone  in 1948 to stay with
relatives and friends and such in safer areas. Can anyone blame them?

Ah, but now they and their children and grandchildren and
great-grandchildren live in tents in refugee camps for a simple reason:
they were not allowed to return to their homes and land.

Did this vacation in Jordan or Egypt or Lebanon or wherever mean they lost
the title to their homes and land? Apparently the newly arrived transplants
from Poland and Latvia and such felt this to be the case.

This is comparable to my going to Oregon to escape the Reconquista Wars in
California, and returning a few months later to find the borders sealed.
(Issues that those who departed may have fallen behind in mortgage payments
and had their farms repossesed by banks, etc., are clearly separable...and
minor, from my readings of Middle Eastern history.)

"You left your land. Enjoy your life in the tent camp at the
Oregon-California border. Meanwhile, your ranch is now my ranch. Oh, and
could give me all of your spare keys? And how does the sprinkler system
work?"

Israel is based on moral bankruptcy. The supposed guilt of the West (huh?
we didn't gas the Jews, and we lost millions of lives fighting Hitler) led
to the "ragheads" being kicked off their land.

--Tim May




"The tree of liberty must be watered periodically with the blood of
tyrants...."
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   408-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Licensed Ontologist              | black markets, collapse of governments.

At 1:19 PM -0500 9/8/98, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>In <v03130303b21b0886ab43@[209.66.100.138]>, on 09/08/98
>   at 09:24 AM, Tim May <tcmay@got.net> said:
>
>>>
>>>Does anyone know of any countries with more reasonable gun laws than the
>>>US?  I vaguely think Israel and Switzerland are better, at least for
>>>citizens.
>>>It is one of the major problems I have with Anguilla -- "guns are bad".
>>>I miss my M1A.
>
>>Don't automatically assume Israel is good for gun ownership. If you're an
>>untermenschen, a schwarzen, a sand nigger, an Arab, you can't legally own
>>a gun. Unless you're one of the Trustees, i.e., a deputized member of the
>>PLO's military or police.
>
>>The Chosen People are of course encouraged to have fully automatic
>>weapons.
>
>Yes Tim, we all know your anti-Israel position and your sympathy for the
>Palistinians even though they are in the position that they are due to
>their own actions.
>
>They started the war, got their asses beat and have been whining about it
>for the past 50 years.

	Crap, the U.N. (what was that about "United?") started the shit
when they ham-fisted decided that the "homeland" the "Jews" needed was land
considered holy by the Moslems AND Christians, and ignored the fact that
the jews were just as racist and bigoted as a group as the Kikes that had
been trying to cook them.

	Israel was a DUMB idea, like mixing Nitric acid and Glycerol in a
blender. Anyone who thought it wouldn't end in violence was a total fool,
anyone who thinks that the Powers That Be want it cool down is a bigger
fool.



petro@playboy.com----for work related issues. I don't speak for Playboy.
petro@bounty.org-----for everthing else.      They wouldn't like that.
                                              They REALLY
Economic speech IS political speech.          wouldn't like that.