radio net

Is anyone else interested in setting up a radio net (probably packet radio
relay) to relay small quantities of data in the event the telecommunications
infrastructure becomes unavailable (either technically or legally/politically/
militarily)?  There are existing packet relay nets, but in my experience
amateur radio people, especially in the US, are very willing to roll over
for the government at the slightest cause.

I think the cost would be something like $1-5k per station, and it could
be done in a fairly turnkey fashion.  Exactly how to handle routing and
what protocol to use on the network is kind of an open question -- there
are a lot of solutions, none of them optimal.

At 02:29 PM 9/8/98 -0400, Ryan Lackey wrote:
>Is anyone else interested in setting up a radio net......<snip>


I have been thinking allot about this over the last couple of months. 
I have subscribed to a packet radio mailing list
(linux-hams@vger.rutgers.edu (majordomo@vger.rutgers.edu)) just to lurk so
I could get a feel for what it 
took to set such a network up. 

Much of my family are hams and have dabbled in packet radio at one time or
another. 
They say once set up it works well (slow but dependable) and is an ideal
way to 
carry non-real-time traffic in an emergency.

As far as a secure network, that's why I lurk in this list. :-)

If such a thing should ever be outlawed or restricted most Hams I know are
law abiding 
citizens and would more than likely conform (No Ham should take offence to
this, its 
meant with the best intentions and respect). 

I think a radio network linked to the Amateur networks sending secure
packets, 
using tunneling or maybe just encrypted traffic (There may be some FCC
rules regarding this.
 I don't want to break any laws so am still looking into this part.) with
nodes connected to the internet (or other network as well ... Remember
FIDOnet) would be a good idea. 

The Ham networks will probably stand up well in the case of a national
emergency. That's something these folks are real good at.

In the off chance that the telecommunications Infrastructure becomes
unavailable due to political or other reasons, some of which have been
discussed quite often here. This network could break off and stand on its
own carrying important traffic for those whose need to communicate with
loved ones and business associates would be worth whatever risk might
befall them.

If Y2K turns out to be a real problem (as I believe it might) or something
else happens. I plan on still being able to communicate with my loved ones;
business associates, and hopefully still get this list. :-)

I plan on adding another dedicated LINUX box for this in the near future
and will be looking for others with the same types of concerns to link with.  

>I think the cost would be something like $1-5k per station, and it could
>be done in a fairly turnkey fashion. 

I think it would be considerably less money wise, and still could be done
properly.

I would be interested in hearing anyone's thoughts on this and maybe
communicating with other like-minded individuals off list. Since this list
seems to have attracted a lot of attention from the authorities as of late. 

I wonder what the ratio of cypherpunks to spooks (IRS, FBI, NSA, British
Intelligence, Government informants, and assorted other agent types) on
this list is now :-)

Would all the spooks please raise your hands?   

You... in the back listening quietly....  Is that you Inspector Gordon? :-)


--
Bill H.
billh@ibag.com




--
					William J. Hartwell
					   (602)987-8436
					  Queencreek, Az.

billh@ibag.com			billh@interdem.com		billh@hartwell.net

HyperReal-Anon wrote:

> >>>>> Soren  <sorens@workmail.com> writes:
>
>   > What about SSB?
>
>   >> FCC regulations prohibit amateur radio services from carrying
>   >> either encrypted OR commercial traffic.
>
> SSB modulation hardly counts as encryption. (?!)
> CFR 47 <http://www.fcc.gov/oet/info/rules/> says:
>
> 97.113 Prohibited transmissions.
>
> (a) No amateur station shall transmit:
>
>   (1) Communications specifically prohibited elsewhere in this part;
>
>   (2) Communications for hire or for material compensation...
>
>   (3) Communications in which the station licensee or control operator
>   has a pecuniary interest...
>
>   (4) Music using a phone emission except as specifically provided
>   elsewhere in this section; communications intended to facilitate a
>   criminal act; messages in codes or ciphers intended to obscure the
>   meaning thereof, except as otherwise provided herein; obscene or
>   indecent words or language; or false or deceptive messages, signals
>   or identification;
>
>   (5) Communications...which could reasonably be furnished
>   alternatively through other radio services.
>
> [snip]
>
> 97.117 International communications.
>
> Transmissions to a different country, where permitted, shall be made
> in plain language and shall be limited to messages of a technical
> nature relating to tests, and, to remarks of a personal character for
> which, by reason of their unimportance, recourse to the public
> telecommunications service is not justified.

  The point being that Single side band transceivers are covered by a VHF
license, and don't count as ham/amateur although the spectrum overlaps.
Morse and other archaic codes are not required. Connectivity to telephonic
land stations is available.
In the mid-80's I purchased a yacht and sailed out over the horizon.  In
the preparation stages for this I investigated the comms availability and
ran head on into the old boys/popular mechanics of the '50's crowd, that
insisted I endure their hazing ceremony and learn Morse.  Suspecting that
adding morse parsing to the deep structures of my brain would turn me into
a popular mechanic, I declined. Other alternatives existed -- one SW
solution was to type in ascii which was then translated into morse before
sending (and vice versa).  Seems several other would be Cap'n Blighs, had
the same problem.  Hence marine electronic stores started stocking SSB
transceivers, which I purchased in the form of a ham transceiver with
factory installed disabling for the US. I disabled that strap pronto, and
was able to enjoy both listening to the cruising ham tag hunters, and make
telephone calls from 5000 miles out in the Pacific (12,000 when calling
Bay of Islands net in New Zealand). I had no problem using it to discuss
work and to ship data.  Whether I was breaking the Federal Communist
Channels rules or not, I can't say.  Of course, not being a United
Socialists citizen makes this easier.  Where I come from you get the
license/call numbers when you purchase the equipment.

And while I've got your attention, on another thread entirely re:
renewable energy sources -- where I come from we use geothermal and
hydroelectric (think hoover dam), to power the country. A lot of
individuals who have steady flowing water with a good head, on their
properties, also power themselves this way.  We also use LPG and CNG to
power about 50% of our autos. I would expect that using all that
relatively cheap electricity to produce metal hydrides would make hydrogen
powered vehicles viable as well.

The Union of Socialist Americans tends to not have much in the way of
raging rivers, so there have been discussions about harnessing the moon's
energy by building tidal hydro generators.  Last I heard, the
environmentalists thought it might hurt the fishies (more than fishing for
agricultural fertilizer?), so nuclear it is.  I suspect there's more to it
than that, nuclear probably has more dick-stroking factor.

What about SSB?

User of DOOM wrote:

> >>>>> William J Hartwell <billh@ibag.com> writes:
>
>   > I think a radio network linked to the Amateur networks sending
>   > secure packets, using tunneling or maybe just encrypted traffic
>
> FCC regulations prohibit amateur radio services from carrying either
> encrypted OR commercial traffic.  Either of these restrictions makes
> amateur radio networks useless for CP purposes.  And hams are very
> diligent at self-enforcement, often devoting hundreds of man-hours to
> track down a single unlicenced operator.
>
> Anyone who wishes to establish a network that may -- at any point in
> its life -- have to operate outside the "law" (whatever THAT happens
> to be at the time) will be well advised to steer clear of the amateur
> radio community.

>>>>> Soren  <sorens@workmail.com> writes:

  > What about SSB?

  >> FCC regulations prohibit amateur radio services from carrying
  >> either encrypted OR commercial traffic.

SSB modulation hardly counts as encryption. (?!)
CFR 47 <http://www.fcc.gov/oet/info/rules/> says:

97.113 Prohibited transmissions.

(a) No amateur station shall transmit:

  (1) Communications specifically prohibited elsewhere in this part;

  (2) Communications for hire or for material compensation...

  (3) Communications in which the station licensee or control operator
  has a pecuniary interest...

  (4) Music using a phone emission except as specifically provided
  elsewhere in this section; communications intended to facilitate a
  criminal act; messages in codes or ciphers intended to obscure the
  meaning thereof, except as otherwise provided herein; obscene or
  indecent words or language; or false or deceptive messages, signals
  or identification;

  (5) Communications...which could reasonably be furnished
  alternatively through other radio services.

[snip]

97.117 International communications. 

Transmissions to a different country, where permitted, shall be made
in plain language and shall be limited to messages of a technical
nature relating to tests, and, to remarks of a personal character for
which, by reason of their unimportance, recourse to the public
telecommunications service is not justified.

>>>>> William J Hartwell <billh@ibag.com> writes:

  > I think a radio network linked to the Amateur networks sending
  > secure packets, using tunneling or maybe just encrypted traffic

FCC regulations prohibit amateur radio services from carrying either
encrypted OR commercial traffic.  Either of these restrictions makes
amateur radio networks useless for CP purposes.  And hams are very
diligent at self-enforcement, often devoting hundreds of man-hours to
track down a single unlicenced operator.

Anyone who wishes to establish a network that may -- at any point in
its life -- have to operate outside the "law" (whatever THAT happens
to be at the time) will be well advised to steer clear of the amateur
radio community.

Ryan Lackey wrote:
> 
> Is anyone else interested in setting up a radio net (probably packet radio
> relay) to relay small quantities of data in the event the telecommunications
> infrastructure becomes unavailable (either technically or legally/politically/
> militarily)?  There are existing packet relay nets, but in my experience
> amateur radio people, especially in the US, are very willing to roll over
> for the government at the slightest cause.
> 
> I think the cost would be something like $1-5k per station, and it could
> be done in a fairly turnkey fashion.  Exactly how to handle routing and
> what protocol to use on the network is kind of an open question -- there
> are a lot of solutions, none of them optimal.

This is a very nice idea but tread carefully here. RF communications is
one area in which the no-domestic-crypto law IS established. The idea of
spies with shortwaves in their cigar boxes may seem hopelessly outdated
but I think the law still stands. Talk to some packet radio guys - I
think some have had trouble just sending unknown file formats. This was
a while back though - who knows - progress may have been made.

Mike