Re: Clinton's fake apologies (fwd)

Forwarded message:

> Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 08:49:56 -0700
> From: jimg@mentat.com (Jim Gillogly)
> Subject: Re: Clinton's fake apologies

> In any case, despite these legalisms, I'm not convinced that perjury in
> any case should be considered treason or high crimes and misdemeanors.
> The Founding Fathers could have been more specific about what was
> impeachable, and they chose not to be, leaving it intentionally ambiguous.

What part of:

High crimes and misdemeanors don't you understand?

Oh, and it isn't 'high misdemeanors'...

I figure it's the fact that 'principles' are involved that is confusing
everybody, no room to move like there is with relativism. Bottem line, he
held a public office, while in that office he should commit *NO* crime or
else he should loose that office. There was no abmiguity there in the minds
of the founding fathers and there shouldn't be in yours either. If this
confuses you then take it as an indication that you have a axiomatic
contradiction in your world view and need to rethink things in a serious
way.

As Jefferson said, if you hold a public office your public property.

Nail the son of a bitch to the wall, he did the crime let him do the time.

It's a pitty he doesn't have this sort of empathy for all those people he's
put in jail for consensual crimes during his tenure. The man has a base
double standard, let him pay for it.


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At 11:25 AM 9/12/98 -0500, Jim Choate wrote:
>Forwarded message:
>
>What part of:
>
>High crimes and misdemeanors don't you understand?
>
>Oh, and it isn't 'high misdemeanors'...

There is no evidence that Clinton actually *inhaled* on the
flavored cigar...

At 07:18 PM 9/12/98 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>
>I've seen several Cypherpunks express the opinion that can be summarized as
>"We paid $40 million for _this_?" And "Ken Starr is on a witch hunt."

Ken Starr is investigating 5 separate Clinton criminal conspiracies.  Walsh
took 7 years and $60megs to investigate Iran/Contra (two criminal
conspiracies).

I like it when the rulers are consumed by their own creations.

DCF

Extra credit awarded for naming Starr's 5 investigations.

At 08:41 PM 9/12/98 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>>Extra credit awarded for naming Starr's 5 investigations.
>
>Let's see:
>
>-- Whitewater and Madison Guarantee (may be 2 separate investigations)
>
>-- Filegate (White House had 1100 FBI files, overseen by Craig the Bar
Bouncer)
>
>-- Travelgate (replacing the old staff is kosher, but accusing them of
>crimes is not)
>
>-- Cigargate
>

1) Whitewater

2) Vince Foster

3) Travelgate

4) Filegate

5) Fornigate

DCF

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In <199809131351.JAA14866@mail1.panix.com>, on 09/13/98 
   at 09:53 AM, Duncan Frissell <frissell@panix.com> said:

>At 08:41 PM 9/12/98 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>>>Extra credit awarded for naming Starr's 5 investigations.
>>
>>Let's see:
>>
>>-- Whitewater and Madison Guarantee (may be 2 separate investigations)
>>
>>-- Filegate (White House had 1100 FBI files, overseen by Craig the Bar
>Bouncer)
>>
>>-- Travelgate (replacing the old staff is kosher, but accusing them of
>>crimes is not)
>>
>>-- Cigargate
>>

>1) Whitewater

>2) Vince Foster

>3) Travelgate

>4) Filegate

>5) Fornigate

Unfortunately, there is still Chinagate that Reno is still stonewalling
the investigations on.

What ever happened with Cattlegate ($100,000 bribe payed to Hillary)?

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At 09:57 AM 9/13/98 -0500, William H. Geiger III wrote:

>What ever happened with Cattlegate ($100,000 bribe payed to Hillary)?

Statute of Lim had long passed.  Also, I'm not sure if an unemployed
hausfrau living in public housing in the District of Columbia is a "covered
person" under the Ethics in Government Act.

Ken *can* prosecute her for crimes uncovered in the course of his
investigation and she has no special privileges (other than spousal).

Chelsea too (Misprison of a Felony, probably).

Socks and Buddy are immune since animal prosecutions ended with the Middle
Ages.

DCF

I've seen several Cypherpunks express the opinion that can be summarized as
"We paid $40 million for _this_?" And "Ken Starr is on a witch hunt."

Indeed, a lot of money spend by the Independent Prosecutor. And Starr is
indeed a Grand Inquisitor.

But he is following the law, and Attorney General Janet Reno authorized his
latest venture.

I'm generally pleased with what's happening. Many points to make:

* What goes around, comes around. The Liberal puke Democrats who crucified
Bob Packwood, Clarence Thomas, and any number of corporate people charged
with "sexual harassment," are now reaping what they sowed. "If she says it
happened, it happened," the mantra of the feminazi left, is now apparently
forgotten by Patricia It's not our business" Ireland.

* And it was the Dems who pushed through the Independent Prosecutor Act (or
whatever the precise name is). They've reaped the whirlwind, as it were.

* Lawmaking is paralzyed, frozen, stillborne. This I count as a Good Thing.
Even better will be another 8-10 months of this nightly spectacle. No
Health Care Reform, no Communications Decency Act II, no Tobacco Act,
nothing.

(By the way, a danger will be having Republicans sweep into power in
November and then making mischief about morality, new laws about crypto and
terrorism, etc.)

* Clinton is of course shown to be a liar, a perjurer, a suborner of
perjury, an abuser of his office, and a duplicitous jerk who spouts NOW
mantras while doing what any CEO in America would be fired and sued over.
(Not that I support any such lawsuits.)

* This disgraces the Presidency, which I also count as a Good Thing. There
were hopes that Nixon's downfall would be the end of the Imperial
Presidency, but, alas, the pomp and circumstance continued unabated. It's
time we demystify this whole President thing and start asking why the fuck
we should let some tinhorn politician spend our money.

* Children will be taught that the President is a liar, adulterer, creep,
jerk, fool, pervert, and general scumbag. (A friend of mine has been
pointing out to his 10-year-old son that Clinton is a lying piece of dog
shit, a monster who professes to lead us all morally while poking cigars in
Monica's cunt and then going to church to piously opine about the need for
values....not that the cigar thing is ipso facto immoral, just at odds with
his "family values" nonsense.

* Let us all hope this "does not go to completion" (ha ha) for many, many
months. Let us hope all see that this nation of laws is built on lies and
perjurious talking points.

* I know that if I'm called to testify in court I'll be sorely tempted to
say: "As for telling the truth, I plan to follow the example of the
President."

Ironically, this situation is now so well known that such a statement would
almost certainly be taken by a judge today as contempt of court. And yet we
put up with having this lying sack of shit in the White House.

I am chortling.

--Tim May


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At 8:11 PM -0700 9/12/98, Duncan Frissell wrote:
>At 07:18 PM 9/12/98 -0700, Tim May wrote:
>>
>>I've seen several Cypherpunks express the opinion that can be summarized as
>>"We paid $40 million for _this_?" And "Ken Starr is on a witch hunt."
>
>Ken Starr is investigating 5 separate Clinton criminal conspiracies.  Walsh
>took 7 years and $60megs to investigate Iran/Contra (two criminal
>conspiracies).
>
>I like it when the rulers are consumed by their own creations.
>
>DCF
>
>Extra credit awarded for naming Starr's 5 investigations.

Let's see:

-- Whitewater and Madison Guarantee (may be 2 separate investigations)

-- Filegate (White House had 1100 FBI files, overseen by Craig the Bar Bouncer)

-- Travelgate (replacing the old staff is kosher, but accusing them of
crimes is not)

-- Cigargate

And of course there were and are investigations of Ron Brown, Hazel
O'Leary, Ron Espe, Henry Cisneros, and nearly every one of the "rainbow
coalition" he installed...seems only the honkies are not being
investigated, which says either there's a coincidence, or the honkies are
getting a pass, or the minorities he put in were your basic political graft
appointees.

I'd say that a President who lives by the sword will die by the sword, but
this might get me a visit by one of his pimps, er, Secret Service stooges.
They grep for "President" and "die" in the same paragraph and have no
understanding of allusions.

--Tim May


(This space left blank pending determ. of acceptability to the gov't.)
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Licensed Ontologist         | black markets, collapse of governments.

On Sat, 12 Sep 1998, Tim May wrote:

> I've seen several Cypherpunks express the opinion that can be summarized as
> "We paid $40 million for _this_?" And "Ken Starr is on a witch hunt."
> 
> Indeed, a lot of money spend by the Independent Prosecutor. And Starr is
> indeed a Grand Inquisitor.

"Our weapons are Fear, Surprise, and our fanatical devotion to the
Demipublican party." 

> But he is following the law, and Attorney General Janet Reno authorized his
> latest venture.
> 
> I'm generally pleased with what's happening. Many points to make:

[snip]

Another that I think is relivant:

* He has been very anti-encryption for the American public, but is very
willing to use it to protect his own ass.  The hypocrasy of the situation
is glaring.

> Ironically, this situation is now so well known that such a statement would
> almost certainly be taken by a judge today as contempt of court. And yet we
> put up with having this lying sack of shit in the White House.
> 
> I am chortling.

"Now is the time on Sprockets when we dance!"

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Alan Olsen            | to my mail, just hit the ctrl, alt and del keys.

On Sat, 12 Sep 1998, Tim May wrote:

> * What goes around, comes around. The Liberal puke Democrats who crucified
> Bob Packwood, Clarence Thomas, and any number of corporate people charged
> with "sexual harassment," are now reaping what they sowed. "If she says it
> happened, it happened," the mantra of the feminazi left, is now apparently
> forgotten by Patricia It's not our business" Ireland.

There's also the idea popular in some gender feminist circles that the
imbalance of power in manager-employee relationships makes it impossible
for genuine consent to be given. Can there be any greater power imbalance
than the president of the United States and an intern? Where are the
feminist cries of outrage?

> * Lawmaking is paralzyed, frozen, stillborne. This I count as a Good Thing.
> Even better will be another 8-10 months of this nightly spectacle. No
> Health Care Reform, no Communications Decency Act II, no Tobacco Act,
> nothing.

In general you might be right. But for "noncontroversial" measures like
CDA II, well, it'll be in one of the appropriations bills that will be
approved in the next three weeks.

> * This disgraces the Presidency, which I also count as a Good Thing. There
> were hopes that Nixon's downfall would be the end of the Imperial
> Presidency, but, alas, the pomp and circumstance continued unabated. It's

The balance of power in the U.S. government is too tilted in favor of the
executive and federal agencies; I think more should be returned to
Congress and the states but don't think we're going to see that happen. To
do that Congress needs to be willing to seize it; they're not. If we get
Al Gore in the Oval Office we'll have business as usual.

-Declan

On Sun, 13 Sep 1998, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> On Sat, 12 Sep 1998, Tim May wrote:
> 
> > * What goes around, comes around. The Liberal puke Democrats who crucified
> > Bob Packwood, Clarence Thomas, and any number of corporate people charged
> > with "sexual harassment," are now reaping what they sowed. "If she says it
> > happened, it happened," the mantra of the feminazi left, is now apparently
> > forgotten by Patricia It's not our business" Ireland.
> 
> There's also the idea popular in some gender feminist circles that the
> imbalance of power in manager-employee relationships makes it impossible
> for genuine consent to be given. Can there be any greater power imbalance
> than the president of the United States and an intern? Where are the
> feminist cries of outrage?

I think they have abandon Aristotelian (or any other phylum of) Logic,
replacing it with something called post structuralist thinking.  Since it
lacks a structure, it is hard to figure out how to explain it.  Apparently
it is a system where "Male Lesbians" exist.  So because Clinton does what
the GFs want, maybe he isn't really powerful at all (name anyone who is
both powerful and submits to GFs, at least in contexts not included in the
Starr report).  No, it doesn't really make sense, but I don't think it is
supposed to.

> > * Lawmaking is paralzyed, frozen, stillborne. This I count as a Good Thing.
> > Even better will be another 8-10 months of this nightly spectacle. No
> > Health Care Reform, no Communications Decency Act II, no Tobacco Act,
> > nothing.
> 
> In general you might be right. But for "noncontroversial" measures like
> CDA II, well, it'll be in one of the appropriations bills that will be
> approved in the next three weeks.

Do libraries now ban minors' access to MSNBC, CNN, ... The House of
Representatives, and the Library of Congress?  And things like NetNanny
and SurfWatch?

Clinton can still veto the omnibus appropriations bill or threaten to
"shut down the government" (= shut down government spending instead of
leaving it running while nothing else gets done).

At 3:49 PM -0700 9/14/98, tzeruch@ceddec.com wrote:

>
>Clinton can still veto the omnibus appropriations bill or threaten to
>"shut down the government" (= shut down government spending instead of
>leaving it running while nothing else gets done).

Hey, don't rule this out. Clinton may welcome shutting down the
government...after all, it was during the 1995 shutdown that Clinton got in
touch with his horndog self. To wit, normal employees were all sent home,
and the delivery girl role was played by Monica Lewinsky, who delivered
some pie to Clinton one quiet evening.

--Tim May



(This space left blank pending determ. of acceptability to the gov't.)
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Licensed Ontologist         | black markets, collapse of governments.

On Sun, 13 Sep 1998, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> On Sat, 12 Sep 1998, Tim May wrote:
> 
> > * What goes around, comes around. The Liberal puke Democrats who crucified
> > Bob Packwood, Clarence Thomas, and any number of corporate people charged
> > with "sexual harassment," are now reaping what they sowed. "If she says it
> > happened, it happened," the mantra of the feminazi left, is now apparently
> > forgotten by Patricia It's not our business" Ireland.
> 
> There's also the idea popular in some gender feminist circles that the
> imbalance of power in manager-employee relationships makes it impossible
> for genuine consent to be given. Can there be any greater power imbalance
> than the president of the United States and an intern? Where are the
> feminist cries of outrage?

"But Clinton is on their side!"

I think the gender feminists are being quiet because they supported
Clinton.  It all comes down to politics.  There are other feminists I know
(of the non-politically correct variety) that have very unkind things to
say about the man.

> > * Lawmaking is paralzyed, frozen, stillborne. This I count as a Good Thing.
> > Even better will be another 8-10 months of this nightly spectacle. No
> > Health Care Reform, no Communications Decency Act II, no Tobacco Act,
> > nothing.
> 
> In general you might be right. But for "noncontroversial" measures like
> CDA II, well, it'll be in one of the appropriations bills that will be
> approved in the next three weeks.

Actually this is *JUST* the time for moralistic political posturing.
Expect to see a great deal of "holier than thou" legislation put through
under "bringing back morality to America". (And anyone who tries to fight
such lunacy will be labeled a hedonistic scum.)

It is scandals just like this that fuel the fires of the anti-sex league.

> > * This disgraces the Presidency, which I also count as a Good Thing. There
> > were hopes that Nixon's downfall would be the end of the Imperial
> > Presidency, but, alas, the pomp and circumstance continued unabated. It's
> 
> The balance of power in the U.S. government is too tilted in favor of the
> executive and federal agencies; I think more should be returned to
> Congress and the states but don't think we're going to see that happen. To
> do that Congress needs to be willing to seize it; they're not. If we get
> Al Gore in the Oval Office we'll have business as usual.

And remember that Tipper is part of that baggage.  Expect a moralistic
crusade or two from the first lady if that happens.

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