Web TV with 128b exported

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/981005/ca_microso_1.html

MOUNTAIN VIEW, Calif., Oct. 5 /PRNewswire/ -- Microsoft Corp.'s (Nasdaq:
MSFT - news) WebTV Networks today announced it is the first U.S. company to
obtain government approval to export nonkey recovery-based 128-bit-strength
encryption for general commercial use. WebTV Networks pioneered low-cost
access to the Internet, e-mail, financial services and electronic shopping
through a television set and a standard phone line. 

The WebTV(TM) Network service, combined with the WebTV-based Internet
terminals and receivers, is the first communications system permitted by
the U.S. government to provide strong encryption for general use by
non-U.S. citizens in Japan and the United Kingdom. Such strong encryption
allows Japanese and United Kingdom subscribers of WebTV to communicate
through the WebTV Network (both within national borders and
internationally) without fear of interception by unauthorized parties. 

etc...

At 04:32 PM 10/6/98 -0500, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>   at 11:08 AM, David Honig <honig@sprynet.com> said:
>>The WebTV(TM) Network service, combined with the WebTV-based Internet
>>terminals and receivers, is the first communications system permitted by
>>the U.S. government to provide strong encryption for general use by
>>non-U.S. citizens in Japan and the United Kingdom. Such strong encryption
>>allows Japanese and United Kingdom subscribers of WebTV to communicate
>>through the WebTV Network (both within national borders and
>>internationally) without fear of interception by unauthorized parties. 
>
>I have my doubts on this. I find it highly unlikely that the FEDs would
>approve this without some form of GAK built in even if it is not in the
>form of "key recovery".
>

I'd guess that the Export control puppets know that the Web-TV hubs will
be subpoena-able by the US even in these other "sovereign" nations.
The WebTV centralized infrastructure makes this easy.

At 02:39 PM 10/7/98 -0500, Steve Bryan wrote:
>David Honig wrote:
>
>>I'd guess that the Export control puppets know that the Web-TV hubs will
>>be subpoena-able by the US even in these other "sovereign" nations.
>>The WebTV centralized infrastructure makes this easy.
>
>This announcement seems to be getting a lot of this sort of reaction but I
>don't see quite why the news is greeted with such animosity. If a duly
>authorized search warrant is required in order to obtain information that
>represents a potential world of difference from having unrestricted ability
>to monitor all communications.
>
>Steve Bryan

The announcement would be a lot better if foreigners were "permitted"
strong disk
encryption; or if foreigners were "permitted" the high grade anonymity that
packet routing can provide.  

Do you think the US would allow strong crypto WebTV for foreigners if the
foreigners had secure links to an equivalent, independent, foreign WebTV
service whose assets were not readily seized, whose techs were not easily
made into Agents, whose officers were not readily kidnappable by the USDoJ,
etc.

Just think of the cookie recipes the infidels would be circulating..

I really doubt Osama subscribes to WebTV.  :-)

At 2:39 PM -0500 10/7/98, Steve Bryan wrote:
>David Honig wrote:
>
>>I'd guess that the Export control puppets know that the Web-TV hubs will
>>be subpoena-able by the US even in these other "sovereign" nations.
>>The WebTV centralized infrastructure makes this easy.
>
>This announcement seems to be getting a lot of this sort of reaction but I
>don't see quite why the news is greeted with such animosity. If a duly
>authorized search warrant is required in order to obtain information that
>represents a potential world of difference from having unrestricted ability
>to monitor all communications.

	Because there are no (or fewer) *technical* barriers to getting the
information, it introduces weakness into the system.
--
"To sum up: The entire structure of antitrust statutes in this country is a
jumble of economic irrationality and ignorance. It is a product: (a) of a
gross misinterpretation of history, and (b) of rather nave, and certainly
unrealistic, economic theories." Alan Greenspan, "Anti-trust"
http://www.ecosystems.net/mgering/antitrust.html

Petro::E-Commerce Adminstrator::Playboy Ent.
Inc.::petro@playboy.com::petro@bounty.org

Petro writes:
> At 2:39 PM -0500 10/7/98, Steve Bryan wrote:
> >David Honig wrote:
> >
> >>I'd guess that the Export control puppets know that the Web-TV hubs will
> >>be subpoena-able by the US even in these other "sovereign" nations.
> >>The WebTV centralized infrastructure makes this easy.

This is as others have noted cisco's doorbelling approach to GAK --
having routers and automated systems doing decryption, and allowing
LEA either direct access (possibly in this case), or access via
complicit operators.

One question which might help determins just how bad this Web TV thing
is, is does it use the forward secret ciphersuites.

If it did use FS ciphersuites, if the LEA starts reading traffic after
some point (by asking the WebTV operators to do so, or by using a
special LEA operator mode), he can't get all old traffic.

The EDH (ephemeral DH) modes are forward secret because a new DH key
is generated for each session.

Some of the RSA modes are forward secret, but only on export grade RSA
key sizes (512 bit).

As it got export permission, I fear the worst.  Perhaps even special
LEA operator access.

Adam

At 02:39 PM 10/7/98 -0500, Steve Bryan wrote:
> David Honig wrote:
> > I'd guess that the Export control puppets know that the Web-TV hubs will
> > be subpoena-able by the US even in these other "sovereign" nations.
> > The WebTV centralized infrastructure makes this easy.
>
> This announcement seems to be getting a lot of this sort of reaction but I
> don't see quite why the news is greeted with such animosity.  If a duly
> authorized search warrant is required in order to obtain information that
> represents a potential world of difference from having unrestricted ability
> to monitor all communications.

Who would you execute the search warrant _on_?  The web site and the
browser user?  (Then why not let Netscape and IE export 128-bit?)
Or some third party who has access to something in the middle
(and may not be picky about search warrants, and may not have as much
standing to resist a court order or subpoena) ?
Or is the WebTV 128-bit code crippleware, using some backdoor key
or other hole for police to break in?

Basically, it just sounds fishy.


				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart@pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.5.32.19981007090445.008903c0@m7.sprynet.com>, on 10/07/98 
   at 09:04 AM, David Honig <honig@sprynet.com> said:

>At 04:32 PM 10/6/98 -0500, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>>   at 11:08 AM, David Honig <honig@sprynet.com> said:
>>>The WebTV(TM) Network service, combined with the WebTV-based Internet
>>>terminals and receivers, is the first communications system permitted by
>>>the U.S. government to provide strong encryption for general use by
>>>non-U.S. citizens in Japan and the United Kingdom. Such strong encryption
>>>allows Japanese and United Kingdom subscribers of WebTV to communicate
>>>through the WebTV Network (both within national borders and
>>>internationally) without fear of interception by unauthorized parties. 
>>
>>I have my doubts on this. I find it highly unlikely that the FEDs would
>>approve this without some form of GAK built in even if it is not in the
>>form of "key recovery".
>>

>I'd guess that the Export control puppets know that the Web-TV hubs will
>be subpoena-able by the US even in these other "sovereign" nations. The
>WebTV centralized infrastructure makes this easy.

I have never looked at the WebTV set-up but I am assuming they are running
a series of proxy servers which then provide content for the WebTV boxes?
Or are they providing an AOL type of thing, with their own proprietary
network and gateways to the real world?

Exactly what is getting encrypted and what is not in this system? If this
is just point to point encryption between the WebTV box & the WebTV
hub/proxy/whatever it seems rather worthless IMNSHO.

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.openpgp.net
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 5.0 at: http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Dogs crawl under gates, software crawls under Windows!

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a-sha1
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNhuqwo9Co1n+aLhhAQGA8AP/eHyYTMwqVfv07k0nRG3ebWf67Tjw7ObH
UEdBwqdf99pJ6HDhcHxz7iqHWT3FHv1B86UXVO2sf8kuZQrSlWOZAxjwZhqQnXTn
7z7RZNe2MEyere8eujTIv4i1pYLKFgFl5vKj3evz5AaILHp8lYl3IASIzbhcP7Dc
8W94T1RhJgI=
=TvXZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <3.0.5.32.19981006110801.0088a430@m7.sprynet.com>, on 10/06/98 
   at 11:08 AM, David Honig <honig@sprynet.com> said:

>http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/981005/ca_microso_1.html

>MOUNTAIN VIEW, Calif., Oct. 5 /PRNewswire/ -- Microsoft Corp.'s (Nasdaq:
>MSFT - news) WebTV Networks today announced it is the first U.S. company
>to obtain government approval to export nonkey recovery-based
>128-bit-strength encryption for general commercial use. WebTV Networks
>pioneered low-cost access to the Internet, e-mail, financial services and
>electronic shopping through a television set and a standard phone line. 

>The WebTV(TM) Network service, combined with the WebTV-based Internet
>terminals and receivers, is the first communications system permitted by
>the U.S. government to provide strong encryption for general use by
>non-U.S. citizens in Japan and the United Kingdom. Such strong encryption
>allows Japanese and United Kingdom subscribers of WebTV to communicate
>through the WebTV Network (both within national borders and
>internationally) without fear of interception by unauthorized parties. 

I have my doubts on this. I find it highly unlikely that the FEDs would
approve this without some form of GAK built in even if it is not in the
form of "key recovery".

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.openpgp.net
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 5.0 at: http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: Walk through doors, don't crawl through Windows.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a-sha1
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNhqM149Co1n+aLhhAQH6QgQAwbLSHKbvSQATd9faLKGGhijUdwykD39R
pR4TUPBEEw8xZ8ueQBgNkh27Y6jUq3B+m6UuZlcrfMUHtCfHC69l0rE9zSpDVB+U
5zfGgapezqFOw6uy/Mma01WGtZcAjBH92xWT+iHP3VZyWavKU9f93HInup3rVOVZ
bXbhoTW5nvk=
=2xNs
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

David Honig wrote:

>I'd guess that the Export control puppets know that the Web-TV hubs will
>be subpoena-able by the US even in these other "sovereign" nations.
>The WebTV centralized infrastructure makes this easy.

This announcement seems to be getting a lot of this sort of reaction but I
don't see quite why the news is greeted with such animosity. If a duly
authorized search warrant is required in order to obtain information that
represents a potential world of difference from having unrestricted ability
to monitor all communications.

Steve Bryan
Vendorsystems International
email: sbryan@vendorsystems.com
icq: 5263678
pgp fingerprint: D758 183C 8B79 B28E 6D4C  2653 E476 82E6 DA7C 9AC5

At 2:08 PM -0400 on 10/6/98, David Honig wrote:


> http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/981005/ca_microso_1.html
>
> MOUNTAIN VIEW, Calif., Oct. 5 /PRNewswire/ -- Microsoft Corp.'s (Nasdaq:
> MSFT - news) WebTV Networks today announced it is the first U.S. company to
> obtain government approval to export nonkey recovery-based 128-bit-strength
> encryption for general commercial use.

Looks like all of those clandestine visits that BillG, um, paid, to BillC
in Martha's Vinyard the last couple of summers finally, um, paid off?

Nawwwwwww...

Cheers,
Bob Hettinga
-----------------
Robert A. Hettinga <mailto: rah@philodox.com>
Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism <http://www.philodox.com/>
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

On Tue, Oct 06, 1998 at 04:32:07PM -0500, William H. Geiger III wrote:
> In <3.0.5.32.19981006110801.0088a430@m7.sprynet.com>, on 10/06/98 
>    at 11:08 AM, David Honig <honig@sprynet.com> said:
> 
> >http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/981005/ca_microso_1.html
> 
> >MOUNTAIN VIEW, Calif., Oct. 5 /PRNewswire/ -- Microsoft Corp.'s (Nasdaq:
> >MSFT - news) WebTV Networks today announced it is the first U.S. company
> >to obtain government approval to export nonkey recovery-based
> >128-bit-strength encryption for general commercial use. WebTV Networks
> >pioneered low-cost access to the Internet, e-mail, financial services and
> >electronic shopping through a television set and a standard phone line. 
> 
> >The WebTV(TM) Network service, combined with the WebTV-based Internet
> >terminals and receivers, is the first communications system permitted by
> >the U.S. government to provide strong encryption for general use by
> >non-U.S. citizens in Japan and the United Kingdom. Such strong encryption
> >allows Japanese and United Kingdom subscribers of WebTV to communicate
> >through the WebTV Network (both within national borders and
> >internationally) without fear of interception by unauthorized parties. 
> 
> I have my doubts on this. I find it highly unlikely that the FEDs would
> approve this without some form of GAK built in even if it is not in the
> form of "key recovery".

It's probably a lot closer to the "private doorbell" scenario.  The only
thing that a WebTV unit will communicate with is the WebTV service (or
the Japanese variant thereof).

Since all traffic goes through a point that will likely cooperate with
law enforcement (and has remote control of the boxes, too.), this doesn't
represent much of a loosening in the export controls.

It's probably as good as or better than any other Microsoft crypto, though.

Jon Leonard

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In <19981006151326.A7421@divcom.slimy.com>, on 10/06/98 
   at 03:13 PM, SDN <sdn@divcom.slimy.com> said:

>It's probably as good as or better than any other Microsoft crypto,
>though.

That's not really saying much ...

- -- 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
William H. Geiger III  http://www.openpgp.net
Geiger Consulting    Cooking With Warp 4.0

Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice
PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail.
OS/2 PGP 5.0 at: http://www.openpgp.net/pgp.html
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
 
Tag-O-Matic: OS/2: Windows done RIGHT!

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3a-sha1
Charset: cp850
Comment: Registered_User_E-Secure_v1.1b1_ES000000

iQCVAwUBNhqaVo9Co1n+aLhhAQFxnAP+JTSoJh91kvTr2c6HLinj5fENlvZn7lQV
R0LEg4EBDiahlPSjIvWgNdNBJMJnIAPv04Y4g7SvorXTfIl/okT7H7QN0YTGHHnP
DkJYMknLxJtNCQ3fOSPpBPcmEA4zwVVq8pJOcmeXqsLCyajqfm7hEM4AIGgDV9vR
dH21juYhpXM=
=bJkv
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

At 4:32 PM -0500 10/6/98, William H. Geiger III wrote:
>   at 11:08 AM, David Honig <honig@sprynet.com> said:
>
>>http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/981005/ca_microso_1.html
>
>>MOUNTAIN VIEW, Calif., Oct. 5 /PRNewswire/ -- Microsoft Corp.'s (Nasdaq:
>>MSFT - news) WebTV Networks today announced it is the first U.S. company
>>to obtain government approval to export nonkey recovery-based
>>128-bit-strength encryption for general commercial use. WebTV Networks
>>pioneered low-cost access to the Internet, e-mail, financial services and
>>electronic shopping through a television set and a standard phone line.
>
>>The WebTV(TM) Network service, combined with the WebTV-based Internet
>>terminals and receivers, is the first communications system permitted by
>>the U.S. government to provide strong encryption for general use by
>>non-U.S. citizens in Japan and the United Kingdom. Such strong encryption
>>allows Japanese and United Kingdom subscribers of WebTV to communicate
>>through the WebTV Network (both within national borders and
>>internationally) without fear of interception by unauthorized parties.
>
>I have my doubts on this. I find it highly unlikely that the FEDs would
>approve this without some form of GAK built in even if it is not in the
>form of "key recovery".

	I don't. If the chinese can buy access to strong Crypto, then Gates
& Crew can get permission to export SSL enabled browsers.
--
petro@playboy.com----for work related issues. I don't speak for Playboy.
petro@bounty.org-----for everthing else.      They wouldn't like that.
                                              They REALLY
Economic speech IS political speech.          wouldn't like that.