My citizenship renunciation made difficult

My Barbados Embassy/Consulate contact Steve Steger (246) 228 4338 called
me up and told me that the state department has not approved my
renunciation - they say one of the forms the Barbados guys had me fill out
is old.

For those just tuning in, I renounced my citizenship to be free of US laws
on cryptography.

While I was at the Consulate they had me fill out a 1st set of forms, then
said those were obsolete (a few years back) and after waiting around for
hours they had me fill out a 2nd set of forms that they said was the
current version.  I filled out and signed everything they gave me.  They
then had an interview with several witnesses.  They took my US passport
and gave me copies of the 2nd version of all the forms with my signatures
and theirs on them. 

Now Steve says that I am supposed to travel down to Barbados again using
up my time and my money because of their error to do a 3rd version of
their forms. Both the time and the money make this a hardship.  They won't
mail me this 3rd version of the forms and they won't pay for my trip (let
alone time). 

It seems to me that since I told the New York times that I renounced my US
citizenship, and they told the world, that it should be a done deal. Also,
spending a day in the Consulate signing everything they gave me should be
enough to do it.  And why is a form saying basically "I renounce my
citizenship" that worked awhile back not effective today?

But most of all, the very idea that the US government has to give me
permission to renounce my association with it seems totally wrong.  The
people in the US are supposed to be free, not slaves or subjects.  Free
means free to leave. 

Any advice?

   -- Vince

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 Vincent Cate                           Offshore Information Services
 Vince@Offshore.com.ai                  http://www.offshore.com.ai/
 Anguilla, BWI                          http://www.offshore.com.ai/vince
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You have to take life as it happens, but you should try to make it
happen the way you want to take it.    - German Proverb

>From Vince Cate:

: But most of all, the very idea that the US government has to give me
: permission to renounce my association with it seems totally
: wrong.  The people in the US are supposed to be free, not slaves or
: subjects.  Free means free to leave.
.......................................................


That was a long time ago, Vince.   People don't think that way any more.   Government
clerks have taken over the world.   No one is their own person any more; we belong to the
National Identity.   But anything which goes wrong is totally your fault.  You should have
known those forms were obsolete.   Do they have to tell you everything?  (do they have to
tell you *anything*?)

I would advise them that if they want more information from you, to come and get it.   I
would advise them to copy the information from the old form.  I would advise them to call
you on the phone and inquire over any missing information to satisfy their need for it.  I
would advise your new leaders in Mozambique to harrass the US clerks and threaten them
with something.  I would advise the New York Times about this bit of inanity.   I would
ask the clerks what they're going to do about it if you don't fill out a new form (take a
boat trip over and dock you?)   I would ask the Mozambique govmt whether they care, and if
they would cooperate with the US if it staked a claim on your body (and your tax
contributions).   I would post this somewhere on the internet where many people would read
it and talk about it, not only to let them know how things work, but also to  alert
cyberspace about yet another flaw in government operations and in the US legal atmosphere.

All very useful ideas.   : |

    ..
Blanc

Blanc,

	Sometimes the best advice is to play the game, get what you want and
let well enough alone.  The fact that they may choose to do nothing does
not mean that bucking the United States of America is a good idea. 
Follow the administrative procedures, leave your anger at home and if
you want to change the way things are, work to be a good example of why
libertarian values are morally correct.  

Eric S

>From Eric S:

: 	Sometimes the best advice is to play the game, get what
: you want and let well enough alone.  The fact that they may choose to do
: nothing does not mean that bucking the United States of America is a good
idea.
: Follow the administrative procedures, leave your anger at home and if
: you want to change the way things are, work to be a good
: example of why libertarian values are morally correct.
..............................................


Eric, I appreciate your concern for my safety.  <g>  But if playing the game was
the right way to do things, the 'cypherpunks' would not exist, PGP would not
have been created or distributed, John Gilmore would not have constructed his
DES cracker, and Vince would not have left the country, or now be trying to
change citizenship.

I realize that Vince was looking for more practical advice than I offered; I
didn't really expect him to take those ideas seriously (and I suspect some of
these also crossed his mind).    Bucking the US govmt directly may not appear to
be the best idea, but it depends on one's circumstance:   a person should do
what they feel is possible and agreeable to them in dealing with nonsense,
whether it is filling out and signing forms of defection, or stocking up on guns
and bullets the way Tim May does.

In any case, being a good example of why libertarian values are morally correct
is not something I would ever do.   Individuals have a mind of their own, and I
expect them to use it, to decide for themselves which values they will support.
I feel no obligation to present demos, no vested interest in converting anyone
to any side of an issue.  I will argue for reason and facts and reality, but I
would leave an individual to face the consequences of their own choices.  What I
am motivated to do, is object to having to take the consequences of somebody
*else's* choices.

(And Soren:   integrity and morality are not incompatible; in fact, they
co-exist and where one is reduced, the other is also diminished).

    ..
Blanc

Blanc wrote:
(And Soren:   integrity and morality are
not incompatible; in fact, they
co-exist and where one is reduced, the other is also diminished).
 
"How I found Freedom in an Unfree World -- Harry Browne", puts it more
succinctly than I.  I think this was a case of using morality in place
of ethics.  Anyone got a Webster's or Oxford around?

Eric Seggebruch - NYC SE wrote:
Blanc,
        Sometimes the best advice
is to play the game, get what you want and
let well enough alone.  The fact that they may choose to do nothing
does
not mean that bucking the United States of America is a good idea.
Follow the administrative procedures, leave your anger at home and
if
you want to change the way things are, work to be a good example of
why
libertarian values are morally correct.
 
Last I heard, libertarianism stood for principle (a currency much devalued
these days) and its handmaiden integrity -- not for morality.
Lets leave the moral high ground to those who would use it to coerce
others.

I believe that the UN Universal Declaration of Human rights
includes the right to emmigrate without undue hardship.  I would
suggest contacting Amnesty International to complain about this
harrassment by the US government.

	Article 13, section 2, article 15, section 2.

http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html

On Mon, Oct 19, 1998 at 10:17:12PM -0400, Vincent Cate wrote:
| 
| My Barbados Embassy/Consulate contact Steve Steger (246) 228 4338 called
| me up and told me that the state department has not approved my
| renunciation - they say one of the forms the Barbados guys had me fill out
| is old.
| 
| For those just tuning in, I renounced my citizenship to be free of US laws
| on cryptography.
| 
| While I was at the Consulate they had me fill out a 1st set of forms, then
| said those were obsolete (a few years back) and after waiting around for
| hours they had me fill out a 2nd set of forms that they said was the
| current version.  I filled out and signed everything they gave me.  They
| then had an interview with several witnesses.  They took my US passport
| and gave me copies of the 2nd version of all the forms with my signatures
| and theirs on them. 
| 
| Now Steve says that I am supposed to travel down to Barbados again using
| up my time and my money because of their error to do a 3rd version of
| their forms. Both the time and the money make this a hardship.  They won't
| mail me this 3rd version of the forms and they won't pay for my trip (let
| alone time). 
| 
| It seems to me that since I told the New York times that I renounced my US
| citizenship, and they told the world, that it should be a done deal. Also,
| spending a day in the Consulate signing everything they gave me should be
| enough to do it.  And why is a form saying basically "I renounce my
| citizenship" that worked awhile back not effective today?
| 
| But most of all, the very idea that the US government has to give me
| permission to renounce my association with it seems totally wrong.  The
| people in the US are supposed to be free, not slaves or subjects.  Free
| means free to leave. 
| 
| Any advice?
| 
|    -- Vince
| 
| ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
|  Vincent Cate                           Offshore Information Services
|  Vince@Offshore.com.ai                  http://www.offshore.com.ai/
|  Anguilla, BWI                          http://www.offshore.com.ai/vince
| ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
| 
| You have to take life as it happens, but you should try to make it
| happen the way you want to take it.    - German Proverb
| 
| 

-- 
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once."
					               -Hume

On Tue, 20 Oct 1998, Adam Shostack wrote:

> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 09:19:47 -0400
> From: Adam Shostack <adam@homeport.org>
> To: Vincent Cate <vince@offshore.com.ai>, cypherpunks@cyberpass.net
> Subject: Re: My citizenship renunciation made difficult
> 
> 	I believe that the UN Universal Declaration of Human rights
> includes the right to emmigrate without undue hardship.  I would
> suggest contacting Amnesty International to complain about this
> harrassment by the US government.
> 
> 	Article 13, section 2, article 15, section 2.
> 
> http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html
> 
My experience is that the US refers to the UN treaty when it
wants to expand its powers over us.  When it comes to 
protecting our rights, they probably blithefully ignore it.

Try applying many of those human rights protections to
the ChiComs and see what happens.

jim