IP: Clinton Wants Loophole In U.S. Free Speech Closed

From: oldbat <bucsplace@cchat.com>
Subject: IP: Clinton Wants Loophole In U.S. Free Speech Closed
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 12:48:25 -0500
To: IP <ignition-point@majordomo.pobox.com>

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/headlines/ts/story.html?s=v/nm/19981107/ts/guns_3.html
 
> WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President Clinton directed his government Saturday to
> find a way to close a legal loophole that allows speakers/journalists to
> express their ideas at public places with no questions asked.
> In his weekly radio address, Clinton said a ``dangerous trend'' is emerging
> at seminars and radio talk shows because the First Amendment permits people
> to express their ideas without background checks.
> ``Some of these talk shows have become a heaven for criminals and hate
> speech mongers looking to sway people on a no-questions-asked basis,''
> Clinton said.
> He directed Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin and Attorney General Janet Reno
> to report back to him in 60 days with a plan to close the loophole in the
> Bill of Rights and to prohibit any free speech without a background check.
> ``I believe this should be the law of the land: No background check, no free
> speech, no exceptions,'' Clinton said.
> In a fact sheet, the White House said that every week about 35 million
> people regularly listen to an estimated 50 conservative radio personalities
> such as Rush Limbaugh and G. Gordon Liddy.
> On Nov. 30, 1999 the FBI's National Instant Criminal Background Check System
> is set to take effect to allow quicker checks and approve speech licenses
> sales within minutes.
> In addition, on Nov. 30, 1999 the law will be strengthened in two ways:
> purchases of all speech licenses, not just political, will be subject to
> Reno background checks as will Kinko's printing services, which are four
> times as likely to involve a prohibited printed opinions.
> Overall, the White House said, it is estimated that the number of background
> checks conducted nationally will increase from 0 million to between 10 and
> 12 million.
> Unregulated speech are ``an open invitation to criminals and right wing
> crazies,'' said Janet Reno, who chairs SpeechControl Inc. The Clinton law
> was named after the President, who was wounded in verbal attacks first
> launched by radio personality Rush Limbaugh in 1992.
> California and Maryland regulate ``hate speech'', said Reno. Florida voters
> passed a constitutional amendment Tuesday giving counties the power to
> require a waiting period and a background check for speech at public places.



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Yeah yeah all very well and good parody except that the 2nd amendment
contains the word "well-regulated" and the 1st doesn't. 

(And yes I know I'm asking for a shitstorm of trouble saying that on THIS
list of all places).


- b!X (Guerrilla Techno-fetishist @ GEEK Force)

Without endorsing Tim's "need killing" views, I would like to point out
that Mr. b!X has a deeply flawed understanding of the Second Amendment and
constitutional history.

-Declan



At 08:35 PM 11-10-98 -0800, Tim May wrote:
>At 7:25 PM -0800 11/10/98, b!X wrote:
>>Yeah yeah all very well and good parody except that the 2nd amendment
>>contains the word "well-regulated" and the 1st doesn't.
>>
>>(And yes I know I'm asking for a shitstorm of trouble saying that on THIS
>>list of all places).
>>
>
>No, you are welcome to _say_ damned near anything you want to say.
>
>However, graduate from _saying_ things to grabbing our guns, that's when
>you'll need killing.
>
>
>--Tim May
>
>Y2K: A good chance to reformat America's hard drive and empty the trash.
>---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
>Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
>ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
>W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
>Licensed Ontologist         | black markets, collapse of governments.
>

On Wed, 11 Nov 1998, Declan McCullagh wrote:

# Without endorsing Tim's "need killing" views, I would like to point out
# that Mr. b!X has a deeply flawed understanding of the Second Amendment and
# constitutional history.

Which would in no way affect the fact that it's asinine to try and use the
First Amendment to make a point about the Second Amendment (as the parody
does) because they are approached in entirely different ways to address
entirely different things.

Which was my central point.


- b!X (Guerrilla Techno-fetishist @ GEEK Force)

At 7:25 PM -0800 11/10/98, b!X wrote:
>Yeah yeah all very well and good parody except that the 2nd amendment
>contains the word "well-regulated" and the 1st doesn't.
>
>(And yes I know I'm asking for a shitstorm of trouble saying that on THIS
>list of all places).
>

No, you are welcome to _say_ damned near anything you want to say.

However, graduate from _saying_ things to grabbing our guns, that's when
you'll need killing.


--Tim May

Y2K: A good chance to reformat America's hard drive and empty the trash.
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Licensed Ontologist         | black markets, collapse of governments.

At 07:25 PM 11/10/98 -0800, b!X wrote:
>Yeah yeah all very well and good parody except that the 2nd amendment
>contains the word "well-regulated" and the 1st doesn't. 

Observe: --begin pasted text--

Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech,
or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to
petition the Government for a redress of grievances.


Amendment II
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State,
the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. 

--end pasted text--

While the 2nd does say "well regulated", it should also be pointed out that
the 1st does not say "right OF THE PEOPLE", except in the freedom of
assembly clause.

>(And yes I know I'm asking for a shitstorm of trouble saying that on THIS
>list of all places).

So why did you?

Reeza!

	If you see a man approaching you with the obvious intention 
	of doing you good, you should run for your life.
				-stolen from a cypherpunk sig

On Wed, 11 Nov 1998, Reeza! wrote:

> Amendment I
> Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
> prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech,
> or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to
> petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
> 
> Amendment II
> A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State,
> the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. 
> 
> --end pasted text--
> 
> While the 2nd does say "well regulated", it should also be pointed out that
> the 1st does not say "right OF THE PEOPLE", except in the freedom of
> assembly clause.

And notice also that the 1st begins with "Congress shall make no law" while
the 2nd begins with "a well regulated militia".

> >(And yes I know I'm asking for a shitstorm of trouble saying that on THIS
> >list of all places).
> 
> So why did you?

Becos the attempted paraody was lame in the same ways that all attempts to
nonrationally support 2nd amendment freedoms by calling down the gods of 1st
amendment freeomds always are nonrational. (And no, that's not me saying
supporting 2nd amendment freedoms is irrational; it's me saying using the
1st amendment to do so is irrational).


- b!X (Guerrilla Techno-fetishist @ GEEK Force)

At 05:27 AM 11/11/98 -0800, b!X wrote:
>
>And notice also that the 1st begins with "Congress shall make no law" while
>the 2nd begins with "a well regulated militia".

and

>Becos the attempted paraody was lame in the same ways that all attempts to
>nonrationally support 2nd amendment freedoms by calling down the gods of 1st
>amendment freeomds always are nonrational. (And no, that's not me saying
>supporting 2nd amendment freedoms is irrational; it's me saying using the
>1st amendment to do so is irrational).

Let's try this again.

Notice how, in each of the amendments below, the 1st is the only one with
the text "congress shall make no law".

This is implied, understood to be implied, accepted as implied and supreme
court ruled to be implied as applicable to each of the rest of the bill of
rights, and later to the amendments, wherein it is not so specified as in
the 1st.

A large part of the reason that 2 thru 10 and the rest do not include that
phrase is to prevent the states from doing the very thing that congress was
and is prohibited from.

Congress cannot pass any law that would infringe freedom of speech, they
cannot cause the states by threat or incentive to pass such laws either-
say by withholding highway maintenance funding a la 55.

Arbitrary out of context interpretations of documents such as this are just
that. I grant you no brownie points for comprehension, you may have earned
some demerits for instigating a straw man.

Go to the back of the class.

Reeza!

--begin pasted text--

Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech,
or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to
petition the Government for a redress of grievances.


Amendment II
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State,
the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. 


Amendment III
No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the
consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed
by law.


Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and
effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated,
and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or
affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the
persons or things to be seized.


Amendment V
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous
crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in
cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in
actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be
subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb;
nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against
himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process
of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just
compensation.


Amendment VI
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy
and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein
the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been
previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause
of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have
compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the
Assistance of Counsel for his defense.


Amendment VII
In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty
dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried
by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any Court of the United States,
than according to the rules of the common law.


Amendment VIII
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor
cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.


Amendment IX
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be
construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.


Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor
prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or
to the people.

--end pasted text--


	If you see a man approaching you with the obvious intention 
	of doing you good, you should run for your life.
				-stolen from a cypherpunk sig