RE: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the (fwd)

Forwarded message:

> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 01:25:02 +1000
> From: Reeza! <howree@cable.navy.mil>
> Subject: RE: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the
>   Foregone (fwd)

> I think there may be a finer distiction- it lies in corruption of the
> enforcing body.

Your right, let me spell it out. Free-markets as depicted by
anarcho-whatever theories legitimize theft, physical violence, extortion,
etc. They further a priori abandon any precept of social institution and
leave it all on the shoulder of the individuals. Additionaly they abandon
such concepts of justice, equity, etc. because they describe no mechanism
to handle these issues. And finaly, they don't even attempt to recognize
the international interactions and cultural differences that drive them.

They make the same mistake as every other form of non-democratic system,
they assume because it works for one it works for all.

> This is the same sort of tactic imho as the war on drugs(tm). Big show,
> little enforcement, extract money from the money holders. Money exchanges =
> leniency.

Not even hardly. At least citizens can change the laws under a democracy.
Under an anarcho-whatever it is strictly lump it or like it unless you're
willing to fund a bigger gun.

> Aside from the comment on honesty, the rest of this reply is sophistry.
> Petro was asserting a point, which Jim acknowledged, then procedes to
> assassinate with particulars of questionable relevance. In a true anarchy,
> who is to say that trade in human lives and stolen property must be stopped
> in that "true free market"???

Ask the humans who are being traided or the peson the property was stolen
from.

I'm going to stop now, this particular vein of discussion is bereft of any
and all positive attributes when one tries to justify slavery and theft.

Like I said, at least your more honest than the rest of these wanna-be
thieves.

You might want to see doctor about that hole you shot in your foot while
it was in your mouth.


    ____________________________________________________________________
 
            Lawyers ask the wrong questions when they don't want
            the right answers.

                                        Scully (X-Files)

       The Armadillo Group       ,::////;::-.          James Choate
       Austin, Tx               /:'///// ``::>/|/      ravage@ssz.com
       www.ssz.com            .',  ||||    `/( e\      512-451-7087
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Jim Choate wrote:
> At least citizens can change the laws under a democracy.
> Under an anarcho-whatever it is strictly lump it or like it unless you're
> willing to fund a bigger gun.

Under an "anarcho-whatever" people are left to their own devices. This
leaves them free to do anything, including institute governments, pass
laws, form unions, inject themselves with battery acid, shoot everyone
wearing glasses, and climb towers to pick off passers-by with a
high-velocity rifle. What people on both extremes seem to miss is that
the world is already, and always has been, an anarchy; the experiment is
ongoing, and so far "all of the above" is the outcome. 

Cheers,
Frank O'Dwyer.

At 10:38 AM 11/10/98 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>Your right, let me spell it out. Free-markets as depicted by
>anarcho-whatever theories legitimize theft, physical violence, extortion, etc.

Nonsense.  Governments are the ones who claim legitimacy for
their theft, violence, and extortion.  Free markets consider those things
to be bad, though in some free markets they're for sale anyway.

>They further a priori abandon any precept of social institution and
>leave it all on the shoulder of the individuals. 

Nonsense again.  Social institutions aren't a market issue,
though some services provided by them can also be provided by markets,
i.e. hiring people to do things.  They're a social issue, and 
people will form social institutions to do things if they want.
Absence of coercion doesn't mean absence of cooperation.
Anarchists are perfectly good at having schools, churches,
volunteer fire companies, theater groups, and soup kitchens,
and they still raise their kids, live inside if they want,
do fun things together, and do necessary things together.
Just because you don't have a social institution that announces
that it has the job of killing anybody who competes with it or
fails to obey its proclamations of the will of the majority
doesn't mean you don't have social institutions.

>Additionaly they abandon such concepts of justice, equity, etc. 
>because they describe no mechanism to handle these issues.

You've sure got the cart before the horse here.
Most anarchists I know, whether leftists or libertarians,
care more about justice and equity than any government
I've encountered (maybe not more than the citizens
ruled by the government, but more than the government itself.)
We just don't think a State is a good or likely way to get them,
given too much experience to the contrary, even if some occasional
groups of people have some limited success running a limited government
for short periods of time.

> And finaly, they don't even attempt to recognize
>the international interactions and cultural differences that drive them.

You're building assumptions into your terminology here....
it's only international if you've got nations.
But assuming you mean interactions between groups of people
living in different places who act different, sure,
we recognize them, whether they're across an ocean,
or a Big River, or just across town.  Doesn't mean we can't
peacefully trade with each other, and doesn't mean that some of them
won't occasionally try to rip us off.  

>They make the same mistake as every other form of non-democratic system,
>they assume because it works for one it works for all.

Huh?  I've been told time and time again "This is a democracy,
majority rules, it's America and you'll do it our way,
love it or leave it, conform or we'll beat you up."
Democracy means that other people can tell you what to do,
and if it works for them you'd better hope it works for you
because you're stuck with it.   There are other systems where
smaller groups of people can tell everybody else what to do,
which can be worse than democracy, like monarchies or slave states,
but somehow the purported "limited government" have been
much less limited in theory than in practice, and 
justice and equity are for those people who are more equal than others.

>Not even hardly. At least citizens can change the laws under a democracy.
>Under an anarcho-whatever it is strictly lump it or like it unless you're
>willing to fund a bigger gun.

A bigger gun than Congress can fund with your money and mine?  Wow!

>I'm going to stop now, this particular vein of discussion is bereft of any
>and all positive attributes when one tries to justify slavery and theft.

Wait, did the attributions get switched around here, and this line
wasn't by Jim Choate?  If not, what was your draft card number, Jim?
				Thanks! 
					Bill
Bill Stewart, bill.stewart@pobox.com
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF  3C85 B884 0ABE 4639

At 11:38 AM -0500 11/10/98, Jim Choate wrote:
>Forwarded message:
>
>> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 01:25:02 +1000
>> From: Reeza! <howree@cable.navy.mil>
>> Subject: RE: dbts: Privacy Fetishes, Perfect Competition, and the
>>   Foregone (fwd)
>
>> I think there may be a finer distiction- it lies in corruption of the
>> enforcing body.
>
>Your right, let me spell it out. Free-markets as depicted by
>anarcho-whatever theories legitimize theft, physical violence, extortion,
>etc. They further a priori abandon any precept of social institution and

	Theft, violence and extortion are already legitimate, not only does
the government use them all the time, but corporations and indivuduals do
as well.

>leave it all on the shoulder of the individuals. Additionaly they abandon
>such concepts of justice, equity, etc. because they describe no mechanism

	There is no (or little) justice under the current system. When was
the last time a cop went to jail for a murder that he/she committed while
on duty. Is OJ behind bars?

	We have courts of Law, Justice is ashamed to show her face.

>to handle these issues. And finaly, they don't even attempt to recognize
>the international interactions and cultural differences that drive them.

	We recognize that these interactions exist, but guess what, for any
sort  of anarchy to exist, it has to happen globally. We are as concerned
about the people on the other side of the planet as we are about the people
in the next city over. Just not much.

>They make the same mistake as every other form of non-democratic system,
>they assume because it works for one it works for all.

	No, we assume the opposite, that nothing works for large numbers of
people, and everyone should be free to find their own level.

>> This is the same sort of tactic imho as the war on drugs(tm). Big show,
>> little enforcement, extract money from the money holders. Money exchanges =
>> leniency.
>
>Not even hardly. At least citizens can change the laws under a democracy.
>Under an anarcho-whatever it is strictly lump it or like it unless you're
>willing to fund a bigger gun.

	Riiiighhht. Tell that to Californians who decided that Marjuana
should be part of Doctors tool kit, and the Feds said "prescribe it and
loose your lisence to prescribe".

>> Aside from the comment on honesty, the rest of this reply is sophistry.
>> Petro was asserting a point, which Jim acknowledged, then procedes to
>> assassinate with particulars of questionable relevance. In a true anarchy,
>> who is to say that trade in human lives and stolen property must be stopped
>> in that "true free market"???
>I'm going to stop now, this particular vein of discussion is bereft of any
>and all positive attributes when one tries to justify slavery and theft.

	He was just taking into account different cultural differences.
Some cultures don't have a problem with slavery.

	Personally, given a lack of law enforcement, I'd shoot the
bastards, but then I never claimed to be tolerant of other peoples
cultures.
--
"To sum up: The entire structure of antitrust statutes in this country is a
jumble of economic irrationality and ignorance. It is a product: (a) of a
gross misinterpretation of history, and (b) of rather nave, and certainly
unrealistic, economic theories." Alan Greenspan, "Anti-trust"
http://www.ecosystems.net/mgering/antitrust.html

Petro::E-Commerce Adminstrator::Playboy Ent. Inc.::petro@playboy.com

At 10:38 AM 11/10/98 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
>
>Like I said, at least your more honest than the rest of these wanna-be
>thieves.

Your earlier reply on honesty was to Petro, I think you are confusing me
with him.

>You might want to see doctor about that hole you shot in your foot while
>it was in your mouth.

Huh?

Reeza!

	If you see a man approaching you with the obvious intention 
	of doing you good, you should run for your life.
				-stolen from a cypherpunk sig