Friedman (The Younger) Sings...

Wherein David Friedman teaches cryptoanarchy 101 to the folks at the Cato
Institute.

A RealAudio transcription from the Cato/Forbes ASAP conference on
cryptography held earlier this year.

Listen to this. It's important. Even if you know what he's gonna say
already, it's a very good thing to have heard so you can point newbies to
it.

Cheers,
RAH


--- begin forwarded text


To: rah@shipwright.com
Subject: up your alley
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 12:11:39 -0500
From: Somebody


Have you listened to

http://www.novell.com/webcast/98/cato/crypto.ram

???

<somebody's .sig>
--- end forwarded text


-----------------
Robert A. Hettinga <mailto: rah@philodox.com>
Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism <http://www.philodox.com/>
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

I see Bob is incorrectly assuming that the folks at the Cato Institute knew
nothing about cryptoanarchy before David's speech this fall...

(The audience may be a different story, though.)

-Declan


At 01:14 PM 12-21-98 -0500, Robert Hettinga wrote:
>Wherein David Friedman teaches cryptoanarchy 101 to the folks at the Cato
>Institute.
>
>A RealAudio transcription from the Cato/Forbes ASAP conference on
>cryptography held earlier this year.

At 11:06 AM -0800 12/21/98, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>I see Bob is incorrectly assuming that the folks at the Cato Institute knew
>nothing about cryptoanarchy before David's speech this fall...
>
>(The audience may be a different story, though.)
>

Interesting that David Friedman kept using language like:

"Some of my ideas...."

"I have developed this set of ideas..."


And yet this constellation of ideas, except for his discourse on digital
watermarking of intellectual property, is what I laid out beginning in
1988, and in thousands of essays here on this list. And in other fora.

--Tim May

We would go to their homes, and we'd kill their wives and
their children. We would kill their families
---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
Licensed Ontologist         | black markets, collapse of governments.

well I personally am very careful to credit
Timmy as the orginal originator whenever 
I lecture on cryptoanarchy, either
in person or in any "fora" hehehe. modulo whatever
BH has invented on geodesic markets or whatever.
btw I was RBLL at BH's recent rant/diatribe/harangue against
timmy (rolling in my barcolounger laughing) .. you two
truly deserve each other<g>

>And yet this constellation of ideas, except for his discourse on digital
>watermarking of intellectual property, is what I laid out beginning in
>1988, and in thousands of essays here on this list. And in other fora.
>
>--Tim May
>
>We would go to their homes, and we'd kill their wives and
>their children. We would kill their families
>---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:---------:----
>Timothy C. May              | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,
>ComSec 3DES:   831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
>W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA  | knowledge, reputations, information markets,
>Licensed Ontologist         | black markets, collapse of governments.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 2:06 PM -0500 on 12/21/98, Declan McCullagh wrote:


> I see Bob is incorrectly assuming that the folks at the Cato Institute knew
> nothing about cryptoanarchy before David's speech this fall...


I see Declan is correctly picking nits about my use of the word "the". :-).
Your definition of "is" may vary, of course. Must be the water in DC, or
something. ;-).

The actual content of Freidman's speech aside (apparently), I stand upbraided,
your honor, as I'm sure *you* told the Catons all about CryptoA way before
they *ever* heard of Friedman. ;-).

(Yes, I know, Declan, you *know* Freidman, he was a good friend of yours, and
so forth and so on...)

> (The audience may be a different story, though.)

- From the questions, which were the standard clueless ones one gets from the
"policy" establishment on cryptoanarchy and anarchocapitalism, and, frankly,
cryptography in general, it sounded to me like they were receiving a first
hearing of Dr. Friedman, the putative (philosophical) godfather of all
cypherpunkery. An attack on flatland from the sky, and all that.

One way or another, the proof is in the .ra viewing, for anyone who wants to
go look for themselves.


Which segues me, in an attempt to ad value to the thread, other than thrashing
Declan for his nits :-), viz:

Given the remarkable cypherpunk-like sound of Dr. Friedman, the real question
here is, who came first, Freidman-egg, or cypherpunk-chickens?  The first
edition of "The Machinery of Freedom" came out in the early 1980's, (83?,
though somewhat-recently revised), yet Freidman leans heavily on post-mid-80's
Chaum in his talk to Cato, and uses heretofore cypherpunk neology, like
"anonymous remailers", "reputation capital", and the like. Not to mention
actual citation of the list itself in reference to Brin's book about the
hopelessness of all privacy.


And, of course, cash-settled information purchases. He mentions IPiracy in his
Cato talk, and tries to work around it contractually, and intimates that
watermarking might be silly unless you can recompile your code with
canary-traps for every customer, but doesn't say anything, like he should,
about Hughes'"organized piracy" idea, much less recursive (geodesic) auctions,
and so forth, as the obvious emergent solution to the whole problem of
"intellectual" property. Maybe he prefers contracts because he's employed by a
law school, or something? :-).


Personally, I think myself that people haven't read Coase closely enough. That
is, it seems to me that an encrypted copy of something in storage of my
exclusive control is about as private as private property can get, and as
such, I can sell it for whatever I can get for it.

If it's on my hard drive, it ain't yours anymore, in other words. Somewhere,
in my rants-to-do stack, is something on this topic, especially in light of
the explosively emerging MP3 market out there, and, paradoxically, the market
for the blind signature patent.


Cheers,
RAH



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-----------------
Robert A. Hettinga <mailto: rah@philodox.com>
Philodox Financial Technology Evangelism <http://www.philodox.com/>
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
"... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience." -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

>From Bob Hettinga:

: Given the remarkable cypherpunk-like sound of Dr. Friedman, the real question
: here is, who came first, Freidman-egg, or cypherpunk-chickens?  The first
: edition of "The Machinery of Freedom" came out in the early 1980's, (83?,
: though somewhat-recently revised), yet Freidman leans heavily on post-mid-80's
: Chaum in his talk to Cato, and uses heretofore cypherpunk
: neology, like "anonymous remailers", "reputation capital", and the like.
: Not to mention actual citation of the list itself in reference to Brin's
: book about the hopelessness of all privacy.
.................................................


Friedman came first, though there were others before him, in reference to the
economic philosophical side of the anarchist-type ideas.  But Friedman sometimes
contributed to the Extropian list, as I remember when I was on it, and very
likely lurked on cypherpunks, as I remember seeing a post or two from him -
perhaps only because he was copied on a question.  But he was 'exposed', so to
speak, to the cpunkish themes from either, or both, lists, and no doubt had
off-line conversations on these subjects.

   ..
Blanc

On Mon, Dec 21, 1998 at 03:41:53PM -0500, Robert Hettinga wrote:
 
> Given the remarkable cypherpunk-like sound of Dr. Friedman, the real question
> here is, who came first, Freidman-egg, or cypherpunk-chickens?  The first
> edition of "The Machinery of Freedom" came out in the early 1980's, (83?,
> though somewhat-recently revised), yet Freidman leans heavily on post-mid-80's
> Chaum in his talk to Cato, and uses heretofore cypherpunk neology, like
> "anonymous remailers", "reputation capital", and the like. Not to mention
> actual citation of the list itself in reference to Brin's book about the
> hopelessness of all privacy.

"The Machinery of Freedom" far from being published in the early '80s
was published in 1971 and is based on writings from the late '60s.

It is very much aimed at 60s alternative types a with relaxed writing
style, anti-drug law and pro freedom line.

This book when I read it through FCS in the early '80s convinced me I was a 
libertarian.  I didn't come across cypherpunk theory until much 
later and, when I did, I saw it obviously followed libertarianism.

I am sure Friedman was well aware on how technological advances could
weaken the state and to accuse him of "copying" is facile.

-- 
1024/D9C69DF9 steve mynott steve@tightrope.demon.co.uk http://www.pineal.com/

one page principle:
    a specification that will not fit on one page of 8.5x11 inch
    paper cannot be understood.
        -- mark ardis